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Xenos 2Fan
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Kifeas
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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This is another example of what I call Ottoman mentality of approaching things and issues, i.e. approaching them not on the basis of principles, logic, morality and justice, but purely on the basis of who is big and who is small. My friend, this is the basis on which Turkey has been approaching the Cyprus issue over the last 3 decades. The end result is that she has slowly but steadily been loosing ground, year after year. |
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erolz
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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
This is another example of what I call Ottoman mentality of approaching things and issues, i.e. approaching them not on the basis of principles, logic, morality and justice, but purely on the basis of who is big and who is small. My friend, this is the basis on which Turkey has been approaching the Cyprus issue over the last 3 decades. The end result is that she has slowly but steadily been loosing ground, year after year. |
Of course the Greek Cypriot community mentalily (or that of it's leadership) of approaching things and issues in Cyprus has never been based on 'we the Greek Cypriot community are the biggest community in Cyprus - thus our will and our wants should always take first priortiy'. She (they / it) have approached issues in Cyprus on the basis of principal (by principal Greek Cypriots alone should rule Cyprus), by logic (it is only logical that Greek Cypriots alone rule Cyprus), by morality (it is only moral that Greek Cypriots alone rule Cyprus) and by justice (it is only just that Greek Cypriots alone rule Cyprus). |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
This is another example of what I call Ottoman mentality of approaching things and issues, i.e. approaching them not on the basis of principles, logic, morality and justice, but purely on the basis of who is big and who is small. My friend, this is the basis on which Turkey has been approaching the Cyprus issue over the last 3 decades. The end result is that she has slowly but steadily been loosing ground, year after year. |
Of course the Greek Cypriot community mentalily (or that of it's leadership) of approaching things and issues in Cyprus has never been based on 'we the Greek Cypriot community are the biggest community in Cyprus - thus our will and our wants should always take first priortiy'. She (they / it) have approached issues in Cyprus on the basis of principal (by principal Greek Cypriots alone should rule Cyprus), by logic (it is only logical that Greek Cypriots alone rule Cyprus), by morality (it is only moral that Greek Cypriots alone rule Cyprus) and by justice (it is only just that Greek Cypriots alone rule Cyprus). |
Is this the Greek Cypriot mentality?
Please, do not make me laugh with such jokes! |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Name for me just one country on this planet that an 18% minority of the population is demanding so much and so many from the majority and tell me just one single country in the world that the 82% majority bothers to even negotiate such outrageous demands from a minority. Yet the Greek Cypriots do negotiate them! You are obviously Joking Mr. Erol! Unless of course you do not consider Cyprus to be a country, or one country! |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
Is this the Greek Cypriot mentality?
Please, do not make me laugh with such jokes! |
It was not the Greek Cypriot mentalitly before independance that as the 'bigger' community in Cyprus it's desires should be met, reagrdless of the desires of the 'smaller' community? Or after it? It is not a Greek Cypriot mentality then and now that as the 'bigger' community it should not have to share power at all with a smaller community, that the bigger one should always rule the smaller? Is this really not a common Greek Cypriot mentality - historicaly and currently? Is it not the same or similar to what you portray as the 'ottoman mentaility'? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Name for me just one country on this planet that an 18% minority of the population is demanding so much and so many from the majority and tell me just one single country in the world that the 82% majority bothers to even negotiate such outrageous demands from a minority. Yet the Greek Cypriots do negotiate them! You are obviously Joking Mr. Erol! Unless of course you do not consider Cyprus to be a country, or one country! |
It is the basis of all 'federal' systems be they in a nation state or outside a nation state, that there is a degree of equality of federal components regardless of size. Yes it is unusal for a federal state to define it's federal components on ethnicity or largely by ethnicity, but the need for that in any federal solution to Cyprus problem is because the division and oppression and opposed desires has been based on such ethnic differences. It does not change the reality that this equality despite size of component elements is part and parcel of federal systems. It is this same _principal_ by the way that gives the Republic of Cyprus equality with UK and Germany and other much larger states in the EU.
You claim that the Greek Cypriot side is willing to negotiate such a federal solution. The first time it did so, it agreed such a solution, then turned around and said it was forced to agee it against it's will, that the solution was unfair - because it gave a degree of equality regardless of size of the communites. The Republic of Cyprus may have been negotiating based on federal principles but it has never agreed to any such solution - ever to date. So forgive me if I suspect that for many Greek Cypriot the very idea that there should be any such equality between the the communites is an anethma - and an anthema to them based on the 'ottoman principles' of we (the Greek Cypriot community) are bigger thus we should get what we want, regardless of principles, logic, morality and justice (or more accurately when we the Greek Cypriot community benfit from such principles, logic, morality and justice demand that 'bigger' wins over 'smaller' yet when it does not benefit them no such prinicples, logic, morality of justice exists). |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
Is this the Greek Cypriot mentality?
Please, do not make me laugh with such jokes! |
It was not the Greek Cypriot mentalitly before independance that as the 'bigger' community in Cyprus it's desires should be met, reagrdless of the desires of the 'smaller' community? Or after it? It is not a Greek Cypriot mentality then and now that as the 'bigger' community it should not have to share power at all with a smaller community, that the bigger one should always rule the smaller? Is this really not a common Greek Cypriot mentality - historicaly and currently? Is it not the same or similar to what you portray as the 'ottoman mentaility'? |
No Sir, the Greek Cypriots never said that they do not want or do not have to share at all power with the smaller community or even in a disproportionate ration with the smaller community. The Ottoman mentality reflects what the Turkish Cypriot (smaller) community has always wanted and tried (still tries) to enforce, namely the complete leveling of the 82% and the flat equalizing of it with the 18% and the 50:50 sharing of power with it. Why you do not go to Turkey and propose them to do them same with the Kurdish people. You do not go because you know you will not return back alive from Ankara. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| Name for me just one country on this planet that an 18% minority of the population is demanding so much and so many from the majority and tell me just one single country in the world that the 82% majority bothers to even negotiate such outrageous demands from a minority. Yet the Greek Cypriots do negotiate them! You are obviously Joking Mr. Erol! Unless of course you do not consider Cyprus to be a country, or one country! |
It is the basis of all 'federal' systems be they in a nation state or outside a nation state, that there is a degree of equality of federal components regardless of size. Yes it is unusal for a federal state to define it's federal components on ethnicity or largely by ethnicity, but the need for that in any federal solution to Cyprus problem is because the division and oppression and opposed desires has been based on such ethnic differences. It does not change the reality that this equality despite size of component elements is part and parcel of federal systems. It is this same _principal_ by the way that gives the Republic of Cyprus equality with UK and Germany and other much larger states in the EU.
You claim that the Greek Cypriot side is willing to negotiate such a federal solution. The first time it did so, it agreed such a solution, then turned around and said it was forced to agee it against it's will, that the solution was unfair - because it gave a degree of equality regardless of size of the communites. The Republic of Cyprus may have been negotiating based on federal principles but it has never agreed to any such solution - ever to date. So forgive me if I suspect that for many Greek Cypriot the very idea that there should be any such equality between the the communites is an anethma - and an anthema to them based on the 'ottoman principles' of we (the Greek Cypriot community) are bigger thus we should get what we want, regardless of principles, logic, morality and justice (or more accurately when we the Greek Cypriot community benfit from such principles, logic, morality and justice demand that 'bigger' wins over 'smaller' yet when it does not benefit them no such prinicples, logic, morality of justice exists). |
Oh yes! The division (read invasion and ethnic cleansing), the oppression and torturing, the attempted annihilation and genocide in the past, etc, etc. You have all the right excuses and pre-texts! Nothing to do with the fact that you cannot digest that the Greek Cypriots are the vast majority and they have been living on this island for millenniums and you are only here for only a few centuries. Nothing to do with the fact that you cannot digest the fact that your ancestors were once the ottoman rulers and the Greek Cypriots the servants, and also that you now cannot digest the notion to have to live together with them as equals in a democratic country, in which they are the majority. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
No Sir, the Greek Cypriots never said that they do not want or do not have to share at all power with the smaller community or even in a disproportionate ration with the smaller community. |
Just as TP has not been trying to secure recognition of the Republic of Cyprus without a sttlement I guess? Do you really believe this Kifeas? (either of them)? If so that is more worrying to me than if you know they are not accurate assertions but maintain them for 'tactical' reasons.
| Kifeas wrote: |
The Ottoman mentality reflects what the Turkish Cypriot (smaller) community has always wanted and tried (still tries) to enforce, namely the complete leveling of the 82% and the flat equalizing of it with the 18% and the 50:50 sharing of power with it. |
Yet both Turkey and Turkish Cypriot community agreed the 60's agreements that did give a total leveling - a falt equalising and 50:50 power on everything. Yet it was not Turkeyu or Turkish Cypriot bemoaing this agreement from day one, claiming it to be unfair or unfairly imposed. Likewise the Turkish Cypriot community agreed the Annan plan - again which did not give that which you claim is the 'ottoman objective' and always has done. OK the Greek Cypriot community rejected it for any number of reasons but the fact is we agreed it and it did not give us what you claim we say we must have.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Why you do not go to Turkey and propose them to do them same with the Kurdish people. You do not go because you know you will not return back alive from Ankara. |
For what it is worth I generaly support the idea of an indepdent Kurdish state and written such before and myself highlighted the apparent inconsitency of Turkey re this and Cyprus. I would add that my view has modifed somewhat over the course of dicsussion on fora such as these. I now accept that this 'inconsistency' is not as strong as I once thought it was or that kurdish desire for secession is not as universal as I once thought. That I do not goto Turkey and vocie these opinions has nothing to do with any fear I might have of the consequence of such actions btw.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Oh yes! The division (read invasion and ethnic cleansing), the oppression and torturing, the attempted annihilation and genocide in the past, etc, etc. You have all the right excuses and pre-texts! Nothing to do with the fact that you cannot digest that the Greek Cypriots are the vast majority and they have been living on this island for millenniums and you are only here for only a few centuries. Nothing to do with the fact that you cannot digest the fact that your ancestors were once the ottoman rulers and the Greek Cypriots the servants, and also that you now cannot digest the notion to have to live together with them as equals in a democratic country, in which they are the majority. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
So Greek Cypriot desire should always take priorty, no matter how paricial and damaging those desires are to others they share Cyprus with because they are bigger and have been here longer?
If there had been (or was) any indication that the Greek Cypriot community wanted or wants to build an inclusive Cypriot nation, not defined as a Greek Cypriot nation, but just Cypriot and if they had behaved in ways consistent which such an idea then I would be the first to support a unitary state with all citizens equal and not federal/ community based partnership required. The simple fact is that the Greek Cypriot comunity did not persue the creation of an inclusive Cypriot nation. They persued purely Greek Cypriot desires and interests - not to create a Cypriot nation but to make Cyprus a colony of Greece. They sought (and I believe many still seek) an independent Cyprus where not ruled by Cypriots regardless of their ethnicity but effectively ruled by Greek Cypriot only. Not only did they persue purley Greek Cypriot desires they persued the impostion of these on other against their commuites will and were prepared to use violence and murder asd a means of acheiveing this imposition.
The reason why I do not believe that the solution to Cyprus' problems today can come from a unitary state is not my inability to digest living togeather as equals (as indivduals only). The reason why I do noe believe this unitary state solution is viable is exactly because the two communites did not persue different desires accross the communites but because they persued desires based solely on ethnicity. The Greek Cypriot community did not take any regard of the Turkish Cypriot community concerns or interests (not as 'equals' or as even 'a large minority community') and the damage that would do to the creation of a true inclusive Cypriot nation, where every equal citizen could feel they had a say in and control over the decsions that affected their lives regardless of their ethnicity beyond Cypriot. It was the persuit of purely Greek Cypriot interests by Greek Cypriot community, without any notion of a Cypriot nation or the concerns or desires of the Turkish Cypriot community of their 'equals' that has made some sort of federal based power equality between the communites a necessity. That was true in 60's and remains true today.
I would like to dream of a truely Cypriot nation, where it did not matter to anyone if you were Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot beyond Cypriot, where political decision were never based on the intrests of only one community alone at the expense of the other, but always in the interets of a united and inclusive Cypriot nation. Howver because I dream of such things it does not mean that I will simply trust and pray that a Greek Cypriot community that has in the past persued solely Greek Cypriot desires and sought to impose these desires on Turkish Cypriots even to the point of using violence as amenas to this end, would suddenly behave today in a totaly different way. If we want a untiary state in the future where it does not matter if one is Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot first you have to proove to me that such is really the Greek Cypriot communites desire and that they will fight and struggle to achieve this reality the same intensity (though not meathods!) they previosuly fought and persued solely Greek Cypriot interest for ALL cypriots. The way you proove this to me is by agreeing a federal solution and how you behave as a community having agreed one. If you agree one (which is doubtful in itself atm) and then behave as you did the first time you agreed one, then nothing but trouble and discord will result. If you agree one and show me through your communites words and actions that the Greek Cypriot community wants to build a true inculsive Cypriot nation where Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot does not matter, and not a Cyprus where the 'bigger' and 'longer standing' community has the ability and right to impose it wishes on the smalle and newer one, simply because it is is bigger and older, then I will be there on the streets demanding the Turkish Cypriot leadership move in this directtion and voultarily give up our communites powers as they become unesesary in this new Cyprus. But first you have to proove to me that this is what the Greek Cypriot community actually wants. Right now I do not believe this. Right now by your communites words and actions, past and present, I believe the Greek Cypriot community wants what it always ahas wanted, namely to be able to rule Cyprus as it alone see fit without having to take any regard for others they share the island with, simply because they are bigger and 'older'. |
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Xenos 2Fan
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
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Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
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[quote="Kifeas"]
| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
Is this the Greek Cypriot mentality?
Please, do not make me laugh with such jokes! |
It was not the Greek Cypriot mentalitly before independance that as the 'bigger' community in Cyprus it's desires should be met, reagrdless of the desires of the 'smaller' community? Or after it? It is not a Greek Cypriot mentality then and now that as the 'bigger' community it should not have to share power at all with a smaller community, that the bigger one should always rule the smaller? Is this really not a common Greek Cypriot mentality - historicaly and currently? Is it not the same or similar to what you portray as the 'ottoman mentaility'? |
No Sir, the Greek Cypriots never said that they do not want or do not have to share at all power with the smaller community or even in a disproportionate ration with the smaller community. The Ottoman mentality reflects what the Turkish Cypriot (smaller) community has always wanted and tried (still tries) to enforce, namely the complete leveling of the 82% and the flat equalizing of it with the 18% and the 50:50 sharing of power with it. Why you do not go to Turkey and propose them to do them same with the Kurdish people. You do not go because you know you will not return back alive from Ankara.[/quote]
Kifeas,
Please show me where in the turkish constitution it is mandated for a minority to have a certain number of seats in the parliament. You won't find such a provision because all citizens in Turkey are considered just that and they can run for office on their own merits in any numbers. This is something that the Republic of Cyprus is not willing to implement. Kurds run for office and are elected. This goes back to my previous post when I said run for office-If I like your platform I will vote for you.
Moreover, you seem to be pissed off about me posting an article that points out the obvious. It was you that played the Ottoman mentality card because I believe you have a difficult time facing some realities about the Republic of Cyprus. Tpap was shot down by the rest of the EU and had a rude awakening. Please don't change the topic of my thread. If he had the backing of the EU do you really think he would have not used his veto power? Not a snow ball's chance in hell. Furthermore, if you want to debate the "Ottoman Mentality" please start a thread and I would be glad to debate the issue with you. I would really like to know what you know about Ottoman history and their mentality besides what you have heard from your family members. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| 2Fan wrote: |
| Please show me where in the turkish constitution it is mandated for a minority to have a certain number of seats in the parliament. You won't find such a provision because all citizens in Turkey are considered just that and they can run for office on their own merits in any numbers. This is something that the Republic of Cyprus is not willing to implement. Kurds run for office and are elected. This goes back to my previous post when I said run for office-If I like your platform I will vote for you. |
My friend, sorry to say it this way but you are miserably mistaken. Do you honestly believe that the problem in Cyprus is because the Greek Cypriot side doesn’t want to treat the Turkish Cypriots as equal citizens of Cyprus and give them the right to run for any office of the country, in the same way that every other Greek Cypriot person does? My friend, if this is your impression then you actually have no idea of what is going on in Cyprus. If this was /is the only thing that the Turkish Cypriots want(ed,) then the Cyprus problem wouldn’t exist today. It would have been sorted out 30 or 40 years ago. Perhaps it would have never appeared or existed as a political problem at all. The Turkish Cypriots have always wanted way far more than that. In a nutshell, they wanted political rights which in essence will be based on the assumption that 700,000 Greek Cypriots will be reduced and counted as one citizen (person) and 140,000 Turkish Cypriots will also be counted and regarded as one citizen (person.) If they tell you that this is not the case, then you are free to call them liars. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| If this was /is the only thing that the Turkish Cypriots want(ed,) then the Cyprus problem wouldn’t exist today. It would have been sorted out 30 or 40 years ago. Perhaps it would have never appeared or existed as a political problem at all. |
If this had been the case not only would the Cyprus problem not exist neither would the Cypriot nation exist either as an independent antion state in any form, united, divided or federal!
| Kifeas wrote: |
The Turkish Cypriots have always wanted way far more than that. In a nutshell, they wanted political rights which in essence will be based on the assumption that 700,000 Greek Cypriots will be reduced and counted as one citizen (person) and 140,000 Turkish Cypriots will also be counted and regarded as one citizen (person.) If they tell you that this is not the case, then you are free to call them liars. |
This is the very basis of a federal arrangement. I concerns me that Greek Cypriot can say they are willing to negotiate on the basis of a federal solution at the same time that they claim that a federal solution is inhernetly unfair as far as it gives federal elements of differing size any equality.
Again I would point out that within the EU the federal nature of it as an insitiutiuon means in your terms that 55+ million UK citizens are reduced and counted the same as 700,000 Greek Cypriots at many level of 60+ million Germans. This _principal_ is understood and accepted as not just 'fair' within the EU but necessary. Why then is the same _principal_ unfair and an unreasonable demand within the Republic of Cyprus (if you think it is) ? |
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Xenos 2Fan
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
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Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
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[quote="Kifeas
If this was /is the only thing that the Turkish Cypriots want(ed,) then the Cyprus problem wouldn’t exist today.[/quote]
My dear friend Kifeas,
I am not saying that this is the only thing that Turkish Cypriots want but don't you agree that this issue is a Major bone of contention? |
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