Petitioning the EU

[-mikkie2-]

Brian,

With all due respect, but if you have such a 'unique' perspetive on Cyprus and then you must also have a 'unique' perspective of both sides. I assume that is what you are implying.

Well, I have NEVER said that I don't believe the Greek Cypriots are not to blame for the situation in Cyprus. They share a significant portion of the blame. However, if you have such a unique perspective on Cyprus then perhaps you could explain the actions of Turkey in Cyprus as well. You canot go around bashing the Greek Cypriots for all the ills of the island.

For example, when I suggested that perhaps your line of thinking would be more convincing if you agreed that both Cyprus and Turkey should not be members of the EU untill they sorted out the 'dogs dinner' of a situation before embarking on EU membership, you simply suggest that without Turkish entry negotiations there would be no catalyst for a solution in Cyprus and that the north would be annexed etc etc! However, doesn't the entry of Cyprus do the same thing? I would not be surpirsed if in the near future negotiations are resumed and this time we will get something more akin to a federal solution than the 'dogs dinner' of a solution presented to us with the Annan plan.

Far from me trying to stop you expressing your views, I welcome them, but the problem is, your diplomatic skills are somewhat blunt and when faced with Cypriots that generally don't take too kindly being talked to in a pedantic manner then do not be surprised with the responses that you get. You will soon end up being at the receiving end of abusivee posts, and most probably end up talking to yourself.

[Nil.IlligitimiCarborundum]

Dear Mikkie2

I did not, as you say, dismiss out of hand your suggestion that both Turkey and Cyprus should not have been made members until the situation between them is resolved.

However unless you have been asleep for the last 15 years and in particular, in a very deep state of suspended animation/sleep since 01/05/2004, you can not fail to have noticed that Cyprus is already a member and Turkey is not.

So "wise after the event, with the benefit of hindsight, blah, blah, blah;" doesn't get us to how this situation was allowed to develop.

My petition will allow me and if others submit similar petitions to mine, they also will be allowed, to demand to know the reasons why, given the obvious problems a divided Cyprus's entry into the EU would cause, its entry was permitted.

I am not a diplomat, I am lawyer and our diplomatic skills rank somewhere akin to the animal the Spanish like to kill, when said animal is placed in an establishment that sells fine dinner ware.

Trust me if someone wants to get abusive with me, I am ready, willing and able to defend myself, but thank you for your concern as to my ability to withstand the heat of battle.

For the record; I tip the scales at a trim 230 kilos, 506 lbs or 36+ stones. I am 1.83 metres tall (6 feet in old money) and an ex-boxer.

I have owned night clubs for the last 25+ years and I have been called a juicy name or three at the door of them, when I have refused someone entry, so fear not for my honour or my blushes. Both are intact and will remain so.

I have already explained the actions of the Turks, it should need no further explanation, but given that you seem to want me to repeat myself ad nausea; here goes:

The Greek speaking Cypriots who plotted against their own President opened the door, that let the Turks in. There is a legal concept; "res ipsa loquitor," or "the thing speaks for itself." Under "res ipsa loquitor" the illegal events that took place on the 15th of July 1974, i.e. the coupist's attacking the President, let the Turks in. As a result, everything that followed was a natural consequence of that negligent or illegal act, is foreseen as being "legal," because of "res ipsa liquidator."


Brian Semmens

[-mikkie2-]

Brian,

You say,

[Donald Keogh]

Mikkie, your analysis of Turkey's position in relation to EU entry is interesting, to say the least. Given the large number of countries favouring Turkey's entry, I am curious to know why you find Brian's position on this matter presumptious.

Perhaps you would enlighten us to the specifics of the border disputes you refer to, without exaggerating the position of the Kurds ( their predicament is one that crosses several countries and borders and is also the result of a colonial past), who wish to realise their political ambitions, but fully realise Turkey, in line with all states in the EU, will in her own interests, defend her borders.

It has not escaped the attention of many EU nationals, how suddenly the Greek Cypriots have developed a disproportionate interest in the ' Armenian Genocide' of over 100 years ago and are using this an obstacle to Turkey's forthcoming accession talks. While this war rages on, mainly in the corridors of Bruxelles and certain lobby groups in the USA, the pragmatic EU citizen is left wondering, why the Turks are being targeted and not say, the Germans, who managed 'genocide' on a far grander scale. That aside, the Armenians also have a very questionable human rights record when it comes to the Azeri's.

And as for parrtition and free speech, well we could go on for hours Mikkie. Ireland, another country with a post colonial background was divided by the British and remains so to this day. Is that a reason to exclude the UK from the EU?
And as for free speech, the Republic of Ireland has an appaling record, but has managed with the help of the EU to modernise it's social policies and reform it's way of thinking to become one of the most successful small countries within Europe.

Mikkie, the Greek Cypriots have to learn that the EU is an association of states with a shared democracy and sovereignity. It is not an excluvise club. If Turkey wishes to join, as expressed 40 years ago, they will comply, reform and potentially make a significant contribution to Europe, as they have done in their past history and despite ongoing protests from Greek Cypriots.

Donald Keogh

[-mikkie2-]

Donald,

I think you misuderstand my position.

[Donald Keogh]

Mikki - your approach to Turkey's accession talks become ever more intriguing -

1/ It is not presumptious of Brian, on the evidence of past success rates with accession states, to suppose that Turkey will one day become an EU member. You sound a bit of a Killjoy when it comes to the application.

2/ Turkey & Greece border disputes

I knew this would rear its ugly head. I take it you are referring to the Green Line, a border dispute that shares some characteristics with it's cousin in Northern Ireland. For some strange reason I know that you are going to tell me, that despite the UK's and Rep. of Irelands successful entry into the EU and their ongoing territorial squabble, the situation is completely different in Cyprus.
Yes I am quite sure that we are yet again going to get the Greek Cypriot view on this issue.

3/ I would be interested to know which European countries you consider have faced up to their historical demons and which ones have not. Now that Germany has a clean bill of health ( I don't recall them having apologised to the Irish for all the thousands they killed in 2 world wars, but then the Irish never asked for an apology and wouldn't expect one. ) what about the Rep. of Cyprus's bill of health. Is it so squeaky clean??

4/ And again from the Greek Cypriot point of view, disputes in the British Isles seem acceptable but not the East Med. basin. Why does the EU process have to be so different when it comes to Cyprus & Turkey?

5/ On EU shared democracy and soveregnity, yes maybe you are quite correct. It looks like the ethnocentric aspirations of the Greek Cypriots are going to come into conflict with the EU. No worries, now that the aspiration of the nation state is superior to the EU law, we can expect the Greek Cypriot's to push home their visions for The East Med. Basin.

6/ The Europeanisation of Turkey.
A new concept even if it does slightly smack of the 'Crusades'
Mikki I was once curious to know why the Turkic tribes, throughout their history, rarely moved westwards. I asked a friend in the know. Why would they, he replied, they were all barbarians!

And Mikki, before I get a lecture on the Minoans and Myceaneans I know....

Over and out ....

Donald Keogh

[-mikkie2-]

[Xenos 2Fan]

[Nil.IlligitimiCarborundum]

Dear Members

Some will recall earlier of this string that I accused Mikkie2 of "trotting out the usual paranoid garbage" and "Brit Bashing!" Of course Mikkie2 said I was wrong and he was not a Brit Basher.

Now he posts:

Quote:

Perhaps you have a hidden agenda. Perhaps you have invested in Greek Cypriot property in the north? Perhaps you live there!

Against someone who dares to question his logic and/or argument or perhaps because this man dared to support me on this forum?

As I have often said, you barely have to scratch the surface of an average Greek speaking Cypriot to see the ex-colonial master hating real person under the surface.

What has always struck me as curious, in my 43 years of knowing the Cypriots, it is only the Greek Speaking ones that harbour such enmity towards the Brit's, never the Turkish speaking Cypriots.

The Greek Speaking ones are always happy to take our money, but not so nice when you point out any of their many flaws.

Perhaps this is the reason why I have always liked the Turkish speaking Cypriots more, also they don't cheat at cards.

I am sure that Donald/Don will also point out to Mikkie2, the contradiction in his post, the one where he quotes Donald:

[detailer]

[-mikkie2-]

Well, perhaps I was being a bit harsh when I said you would be thrown in jail if you discussed the Armenian genocide! But in any case, the point is that certain subjects are taboo in Turkey. I do not hear any objective repost regarding this. All I hear from the majority of Turks is that this event did not happen. There is no open debate on the subject. Quite frankly, it is very difficult to explain away the deaths of so many people but anyway such is life. Perhaps the historians will find out but that very much depends on the Turkish government allowing free access to ALL the Ottoman Archives. So far access to the archives has been strictly cntrolled as far as I am aware.

Brian, well what can I say? In your zeal to throw venom at me you then go on to show your general distaste for Greek Cypriots! Very objective of you if I may say so. You recoil at Brit bashing but its ok to Greek Cypriot bash!

As for me 'Brit bashing', again, in your zeal to throw yet more venom at me you simply ignore or even refuse to accept any culpability on the part of the British as colonial rulers. You talk as though the British were honest brokers between the two communities. As a colonial power Britain was looking after her interests and that would have certain consequences on the attitudes of the local population. Of course you will just say that I blame all the ills of Cyprus on the British which couldn't be further from the truth. What I am saying however, is that British actions contributed to some extent to the overall problem in Cyprus. But hey, you just carry on throwing mud at me.

2Fan, I am well aware of the love of the military by the Turks. All I am saying is that unelected persons, such as the military mandarins, should have no place in running the affairs of a country. The recent past has demonstrated their meddling in state affairs. If this is now truly going through a process of change then great. It can only be a good thing.

I am also aware of the consequences of Turkey turning her back on the EU. But the Turks must also be aware of the consequences to themselves. The Turkish economy is massively indebted and despite the perceived economic miracle that is happening in Turkey, the finances of the country are heavily reliant on the IMF and World bank and on generous loans from the good ol' US of A. Turn your back on the West, yuo turn off the money tap!

As for Papadopoulos, well for 31 years you had a known terrorist leading the Turkish Cypriot's, but then again one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[erolz]

[Xenos 2Fan]

[erolz]

Once again I have had to move posts from this thread that are not about the content of Brians's petition but about Brian and his motives etc etc.

ARGUE THE POINT NOT THE PERSON

All moved posts are here

http://www.talkcyprus.org/viewtopic.php?t=723

This thread is for discussion of the CONTENT of Brians posts. If people continue to use it for discussion not about the CONTENT of these posts I will have to consider issuing some warnings and yellow cards. I do NOT want to have to do this.

Thank you

[erolz]

Once again I have had to move post from this thread to the alternative thread.

I really do have better ways to spend my time.

Boomerang if you want this thread stopped and you want to stop the other members of the forum who WANT to discuss the content and issues rasied in Brian's petitions then once more post here something that is not about the issues raised in the petitions and I will lock the thread and leave it locked. The price to you howver will be that you will have imposed your will on others and I will promise you that I will submit an identical to brians petetion to the EU myself!

Please people. It really is simple

Posts about the issues raised in the petition go here.

Posts about anything else related - about brian, personal insults (and I will be reviewing these in time with my co admin and decideing if action is needed) and eveything else goes to the alternative thread.

Boomerang you can force the closeure of this thread and stop the constructive discussion that has been going on here. But there will be a price if you _choose_ to do that.

One very fed up administrator