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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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| Quote: |
| In the north of course we did boot out a poltician for NOT agreeing a solution. |
Why did it take 30 years to boot him out?...I was just wondering?[/quote] |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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The obvious answer as to why Papadopoulos is pushing for recognition is so that the solution will be based on the evolution of the Republic of Cyprus into a Federal state.
Of course, I would like to know what demands of ours are maximalist and which ones are unrealistic. As opposed to the two state solution under a confederation that Erdogan seems to demand from Papadopoulos. Isn't that a maximalist demand? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| boomerang wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In the north of course we did boot out a poltician for NOT agreeing a solution. |
Why did it take 30 years to boot him out?...I was just wondering? |
[/quote]
Not sure really, but then I do not understand fully why it can take 2 years + to get a phone line put in here either ;)
I guess it has taken us that long to unilateraly decide we as a community are ready to forget the past and move on into the future?
Maybe true progress can only be acheived when both communites make it deomcraticaly clear to thier leaderships that a solution is their priority?
Who know? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| The obvious answer as to why Papadopoulos is pushing for recognition is so that the solution will be based on the evolution of the Republic of Cyprus into a Federal state. |
I am sorry mikkie I still do not 'but it'. If that were the objective then the persuit of a decleration stating that there can be no final Turkish entry into the EU without a settlement based on the evolution of the existing Republic of Cyprus into a federal state would be the way to persue it imo.
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
Of course, I would like to know what demands of ours are maximalist and which ones are unrealistic. As opposed to the two state solution under a confederation that Erdogan seems to demand from Papadopoulos. Isn't that a maximalist demand? |
Firstly demanding recogntion by Turkey without a settlement is a maximal demand.
Demanding the return of ALL refugess is maximal.
Demanding the return of ALL Turkish mainlanders that have come to Cyprus since 74 is a maximal demand.
Demanding that there can be NO protection for the fedral states to ensure that both do not become numericaly dominsted by Greek Cypriot community alone is a maximal demand.
Demanding that Turkey can play NO future role in protecting any agreed rights and security for the Turkish Cypriot community is a maximalist demand, through the most understandable to me and one that could be conceeded if realstic alternatives could be found (not the UN and EU who have a track record of failure in this regard).
I also agree that statments by Erdogan that a solution must be a two state confederation are maximalist and unrealistic. What I am not sure of at this time is if he actualy said this or has just been reported to have said it and if he did if this is a reaction to Greek Cypriot maximalist demands on recogntion without a settlment or a statement of long held and unchanged and unchangeable policy. |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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| boomerang wrote: |
| erolz wrote: |
| In the north of course we did boot out a poltician for NOT agreeing a solution. |
Why did it take 30 years to boot him out?...I was just wondering?
| erolz wrote: |
Not sure really, but then I do not understand fully why it can take 2 years + to get a phone line put in here either ;)
I guess it has taken us that long to unilateraly decide we as a community are ready to forget the past and move on into the future?
Maybe true progress can only be acheived when both communites make it deomcraticaly clear to thier leaderships that a solution is their priority?
Who know? |
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You do not think EU membership had anything to do with it?...Do you think if there wasn't EU membership, things would have changed in the north?
(admin note - i tided up the quoting on your post - hope this ok, just was getting a little confused - ez) |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| boomerang wrote: |
You do not think EU membership had anything to do with it?...Do you think if there wasn't EU membership, things would have changed in the north?
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Yes I think it (EU entry of south) played a significant role, but probably not in the same way you view it.
Iminent (pre annan vote) entry of the Republic of Cyprus did create a beleif that perhaps this time, unlike all previous times, a settlement was a realistic possibility and it is this factor of EU entry (rather than straight desire of Turkish Cypriot to be in the EU - which also played a role but imo not so major) that lead to the Turkish Cypriot community rejecting the 'old school obstructionist' policy of Denktash as persident and UBP as government and seek a more 'pro solution' President and government - all be it one that would not just capitulate but that would work for a real agreed solution.
Just my personal opinion of course. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Erolz wrote: |
| How does the persuit of Turkey being forced to recognise the Republic of Cyprus WITHOUT a settlement put any more pressure on Turkey to find and agree a settlement than agreeing that for Turkey to finally enter the EU it MUST agree a settlment with the Republic of Cyprus first? I can not see that persuit of recognition without a settlment places one iota more pressure on Turkey to find a settlment than the alternative option. I can see how such a persuit risks all for a shot at everything and that it is a very very dangerous game to play the consequences of which could be vast and disaterous for Cyprus. |
Because in this way we have the facility to exercise the said pressure much earlier than just wait another 15 years or until Turkey will become ready to finally join the EU. Do you have a problem if we want a solution in the near future instead of waiting another 15 years? I ask you this because I know some Turkish Cypriots who want the solution to delay as much as possible, since this will give them plenty of time to sell out all the Greek Cypriot properties in the north, the settlers will multiply further, the desire of the last Greek Cypriot to return back to the north will effectively become exhausted and the motives of the Greek Cypriot side to have a solution will diminish dramatically, as they will be the side that will only have to give out and “gain” nothing in return. All these according to some Turkish Cypriot scenarios will eventually lead to the so much wanted partition of the island. |
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1214
Location: Nicosia
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| I think too that Erdogan was misquoted in some of the Greek Cypriot press. Erdogan talked about two states as per Component States (Annan Plan) and not two states meaning countries. If Turkey goes back to the Denktash era and starts calling for two sovereign countries then then Turkey's strategy will collapse overnight and I doubt Erdogan is that stupid. Of course many politicians on our side long for the Denktash era when things were more favourable for our side and the Turks took all the blame for the impasse. |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| Quote: |
Demanding the return of ALL refugess is maximal.
Demanding the return of ALL Turkish mainlanders that have come to Cyprus since 74 is a maximal demand.
Demanding that there can be NO protection for the fedral states to ensure that both do not become numericaly dominsted by Greek Cypriot community alone is a maximal demand.
Demanding that Turkey can play NO future role in protecting any agreed rights and security for the Turkish Cypriot community is a maximalist demand, through the most understandable to me and one that could be conceeded if realstic alternatives could be found (not the UN and EU who have a track record of failure in this regard). |
Erol,
You say 'demanding'. Nobody is demanding these things. What is being asked for is the respect for the human rights of all Cypriots, not the enforcement of those rights to some Cypriots at the expense of others.
We have discussed many times before different ways of ensuring that Turkish Cypriot's have control of their federal zone without compromising the basic rights of freedom of movement and settlement in Cyprus. It seems that this is not enough. You want two 'states' and all the problems that will bring. If you control the movement of people in Cyprus, then you cannot have unified institutions that will work effectively and efficiently. I challenge anyone to show how such a system in such a small country such as Cyprus could operate efficiently and smoothly. It will not! |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
Because in this way we have the facility to exercise the said pressure much earlier than just wait another 15 years or until Turkey will become ready to finally join the EU. |
Again I am sorry Kifeas but I do not 'buy this' argument either. If the Greek Cypriot objective was to start negotiations asap and see them resolved asap, then it would have / should have lobbied for a wording that states there can be no final Turkish entry to EU withotu a settlement and substansive talks for a settlement must begin before 2006 (or mid 2006) and if they remain deadlock by 2008 EU entry negotiations will be halted until they progress (or something similar).
| Kifeas wrote: |
Do you have a problem if we want a solution in the near future instead of waiting another 15 years? |
No - my fear and concern is that your leadership are persuing recognition of Republic of Cyprus by Turkey INSTEAD of an agreed negotiated solution and that if this is the case the Greek Cypriot community will not see or believe it is the case until it is too late judging from the eveidence here. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
Erol,
You say 'demanding'. Nobody is demanding these things. What is being asked for is the respect for the human rights of all Cypriots, not the enforcement of those rights to some Cypriots at the expense of others. |
I feel it is necessary to go back to my earlier post and restablish the context that these list of maximal demands was given in
| erol wrote: |
| Some HAVE lost power by appearing to be ready to agree one that does not meet the kind of maximal unrealistic demands that politicans in the South have been feeding the Greek Cypriot public ever since 74. |
Are you denying that Greek Cypriot politicans have been telling the Greek Cypriot people that a solution must mean ALL refugees return and ALL settlers leave and other such maximal demands? Is the 'democratic sacking' of Clerides not linked to the perception that he was willing to agree a settlement that did not secure the kind of maximal demands that Greek Cypriot polticians have been feeding the Greek Cypriot population since 74? This is the context in which I listed these maximal demands.
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
We have discussed many times before different ways of ensuring that Turkish Cypriot's have control of their federal zone without compromising the basic rights of freedom of movement and settlement in Cyprus. It seems that this is not enough. You want two 'states' and all the problems that will bring. If you control the movement of people in Cyprus, then you cannot have unified institutions that will work effectively and efficiently. I challenge anyone to show how such a system in such a small country such as Cyprus could operate efficiently and smoothly. It will not! |
What we want is two federal states where the is some form of guarantee that one of these will ramain in overall control of the Turkish Cypriot community. |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| Quote: |
| Are you denying that Greek Cypriot politicans have been telling the Greek Cypriot people that a solution must mean ALL refugees return |
I am not denying anything Erol. What I am saying is that in any solution, all refugees must have the CHOICE to return or not and to have alternatives in place such as to give people new plots in the area or region of their choosing.
| Quote: |
| What we want is two federal states where the is some form of guarantee that one of these will ramain in overall control of the Turkish Cypriot community. |
What it appears you want is two ethnically distinct regions in Cyprus, which is not the same thing as having overall control of a region. |
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