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erolz
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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| It takes bold leaders to do what you suggest. Would the Turkish politicians, after 31 years of not accepting the Republic of Cyprus and feeding nationalistic rhetoric to its population, do a u turn and accept the Reoublic of Cyprus as laid out in the 1960 constitution? This is something they will not do of their own accord. They will have to be forced and that is why Cypriot EU membership will eventually bear fruit in that respect. |
This notion that Turkey does not recognise the Republic of Cyprus of the 1960 agreements is just absurd. They recognised the Republic of Cyprus of the 1960 agreements, they were instrumental in creating those agreements. It is because those agreements were not 'honored' but ignored undermined and in effect abbrogated that they ceased to recognise a Republic of Cyprus that was in no way compatible with the 1960 agreements, not in spirit and not in law. It would be no U turn on the part of Turkey to recognise a 1960 style Republic of Cyprus. It would require a total U turn of the Greek Cypriot only run Republic of Cyprus since 63, not Turkey. |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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post removed by erolz. This post was originaly made by me but appeared as comming from Mikkie2 ???
The post can be seen below.
I hope the forum is not broken  |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
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Location: Boston
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| Mikkie2, is this you posting or someone else hacked into your account? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Mete wrote: |
| Mikkie2, is this you posting or someone else hacked into your account? |
Not sure what is going on here. That last post was by me (erolz) not mikkie2 ???
Some sort of wierd glitch I hope.
I am going to delete the post and remake it again. Hope that sorts it out
Last edited by erolz on Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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erolz
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| Quote: |
Turkey wants partition, Erol. The statements of Erdogan show this. Two states, confederal solution, that is what Erdogan want! NOT UNIFICATION! That is why Turkey does not recognise the 1960 republic. |
Turkey want(ed) partition yet brokered and agreed the 60's agreements based on a unitary and Independent Cypriot nation of two partner communites and considered that agreement as a 'victory', and did not consider it an 'unfair settlement' imposed on them against their will and at 'gun point' as the Greek Cypriot community did. They did not create secrect plans to undermine this agreement that they considered a 'victory'.
To say that Turkey does not recognise the 1960 Republic of Cyprus because it wants partition is just to ignore hisotrical reality. It no longer believes the 60's agreements are a basis for a untied Cyprus, because when we tried that those agreements FAILED. The people who first and foremost did not recognise the 1960 agreements (despite having signed them) and did ecerything in their power, inclding illegalities and use of violence, to ensure they failed were the Greek Cypriots. That is how the Cyprus problem started, because the Greek Cypriot leadership was determined to abrogate the 60's agreements that they signed, by fair menas or foul at any cost to the Cypriot people or the chance of creating a Cypriot nation. The problem was solidified when the UN 'rewarded' these actions on the part of the Greek Cypriot leadership by recognising the Greek Cypriot administration, that had subverted it's own consitituion, ignore it's own supreme court and use violence against it's own people, as a legtimate government. It was resolidified when the EU did the same by allowing entry of this Greek Cypriot only Republic of Cyprus without any requirment on a solution or recognition of it's own past illegaities or subversion of it's own consitituion and agreements signed.
To make out that the reason the Cyprus problem exists is that Turkey refuses to recognise the 60's agreements - which it DOES recognise, because it wants partition in Cyprus is just a gross distortion of reality to me. To make out all that it would require today (or back from 63 onwards) for the problem to be solved is for Turkey to recognise the 1960 agreements (which it already DOES recognise) is similarly just madness from where I am sitting.
(PS I am all wierded out now. I cant find the orignal post that this is a reply to and cant work out how this post above appeared to come from mikkie2 ????. Its too late now. I will look again in the morning and see if it makes any sense?) |
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Birkibrisli
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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Location: Australia
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Erol,perhaps gremlins are at work causing havoc with this thread!
Good luck trying to sort it out.
But I am still puzzled by one thing. If as you say Turkey recognises the Republic of Cyprus of 1960 what is she still doing in Cyprus? I am not trying to be a smart alec. I left Cyprus before 1974 so some things are hazy in my memory.What is Turkey's justification for remaining in Cyprus after she intervened to restore the Republic of Cyprus? Why wasn't the Republic of Cyprus restored anyway?If Turkey's responsibility as a guarantor was to restore the 1960 constitution,what stopped her at the time?
Do you agree with those who suggest Turkey simply used the Sampson coup to advance her militaristic expansionism?And what is your position (as someone who lives there,and who might be emotionally more objective because you were born in England to an English mother if I am not mistaken) regarding the settlers? Is Turkey within her rights to bring these people to Cyprus?Aren't we creating another human tragedy on top of the Cypriot one,as these people might have to leave under any just solution to the problem? And talking about just solutions,what do the majority of Turkish Cypriots feel about the Greek Cypriot refugees from the NOrth?Is it realistic to expect them to return to their homes and live under Turkish Cypriot administration in their own country?
I am just trying to understand the mindset among Turkish Cypriots at the moment?
Is anybody concerned about the boom in construction mostly on former Greek Cypriot land?Is anybody concerned about the demolition of historical sites to make way for a Turkish flag in Karpaz region?Does anybody mind that 700 donums of forests were burned as a result of military exercises at Alevkaya?
I am assuming that these stories I read on the Internet are true of course. And if they are true are we not permanently damaging Cyprus,our homeland?You can't imagine how frustrating it is to sit 20,000 kms away and read all this,and feel helpless to do anything about the destruction of your homeland,Erol.And for what?Because Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots are not capable of trusting each other,and taking their fate into their own hands.Because we expect someone else (Turkey,Greece,EU,UN) to solve our problems for us,problems they have created with the help of Britain and USA and other imperialist powers.I feel we are hiding behind wordgames,political manoeuvres,international plots,and watching Cyprus burn,burn,burn.Will we ever find the courage and admit our wrongs past and present and get back and make a go of running our one and only legitimate country,the Republic of Cyprus? |
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-mikkie2-
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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| Quote: |
| To say that Turkey does not recognise the 1960 Republic of Cyprus because it wants partition is just to ignore hisotrical reality. |
Your historical reality and what is actually reality seem to be two different things! In your quest to convince that it is soley the Greek Cypriots that are to blame for the break down of the partnership state you conveniently ignore the actions of Turkey and your the actions of your leaders. Kucuck had something in mind when he was buying up vast swathes of northern Nicosia prior to independence don't you think? And that is just one example.
As to the gremlins, I am not sure what has been going on since my last post. I hope the site has not been hacked.
Turkey as a guarantor was supposed to bring about constitutional order. SHE HAS NOT DONE THAT EROL. You have to admit that some massive mistakes were done by Turkey. If partition is not her aim then she has a very funny way of going about it! |
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erolz
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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
| But I am still puzzled by one thing. If as you say Turkey recognises the Republic of Cyprus of 1960 what is she still doing in Cyprus? I am not trying to be a smart alec. |
Turkeys view I beleieve is that the Republic of Cyprus of 1960 ceased to exist in 63.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I left Cyprus before 1974 so some things are hazy in my memory.What is Turkey's justification for remaining in Cyprus after she intervened to restore the Republic of Cyprus? Why wasn't the Republic of Cyprus restored anyway?If Turkey's responsibility as a guarantor was to restore the 1960 constitution,what stopped her at the time? |
Again Turkey's position as I understand it is that the 1960 agreements failed and could not be returned to. A new agreement had to be agreed after 74 and we are still trying to do that.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Do you agree with those who suggest Turkey simply used the Sampson coup to advance her militaristic expansionism? |
Turkey has always had and will always have strategic interests over Cyprus. Just look at where it is. However I do not accept that Turkey is an expansionist nation. I take a simple view on measuring how expansionist a nation is - measure how much it has expanded or tried to expand in it's history (as a nation state). If you meauser expasionism by how much a nation state expands then Greece is the most expasionist modern nation state in existance. This is not to say Greece is 'evil' or that it's expansions from it's founding were 'wrong' but it is to say that Greece is way more expansionst that Turkey.
I think Turkey was extremely unhappy with the status of Cyprus since 63. Mainly for strategic concerns re an islands just 40 k off her coast and partly because of concern for the Turkish Cypriot community. I think ever since 63 she was looking for a way to change the defacto status quo established on the island then. The coup was the catalyst or 'excuse' if you prefer to use military means to impose a new status quo on the island that addressed her strategic concerns. Turkeys primary concern has always been that the Island of Cyprus is not controlled by Greece or by Greek Cypriot alone.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
And what is your position (as someone who lives there,and who might be emotionally more objective because you were born in England to an English mother if I am not mistaken) regarding the settlers? Is Turkey within her rights to bring these people to Cyprus? |
I am personaly very sympatheic to the settlers themselves. I percive them as a realtively unempowerd group here in the North. I do not resent them as indivduals. They did not come here univited. We the Turkish Cypriot community wanted them to come. In 74 we were struggling (and to a degree still are) to make the North a viable entitiy (for better or worse) and the simple fact is we need people, with skills and with a willingness to do work land and do jobs we would not or could not do oursleves. I condem Turkish Cypriot 'racism' towards these people.
As for was Turkey within her rights to encourage these people to come, no she was not. The Turkish Cypriot adminsitration probably had some right to invite and encourage them to come, as far as it had any right to be the government of the North. It did not have a right to 'give' them land, though again I think the perception as to how much land settler got is probably not in proportion to the reality.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Aren't we creating another human tragedy on top of the Cypriot one,as these people might have to leave under any just solution to the problem? And talking about just solutions,what do the majority of Turkish Cypriots feel about the Greek Cypriot refugees from the NOrth?Is it realistic to expect them to return to their homes and live under Turkish Cypriot administration in their own country? |
Wheather the settlers are to become another humand tradgedy is down to us, Cypriots and what we agree in any settlment. I am against proposals that make these people pay for our 'sins'.
If the solution is to be a federal one then some Turkish Cypriot will end up living in the Greek Cypriot federal component state and some Greek Cypriots living in a Turkish Cypriot federal component state. I see no probelm with this is the federal states behave propoerly towards these people. At least there is some choice involved, unlike the situation from 63 where every Turkish Cypriot was expected to live in a nation state under sole Greek Cypriot adminsitration, in their own country.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Is anybody concerned about the boom in construction mostly on former Greek Cypriot land? |
Yes many Turkish Cypriot are concerned at the construction boom, for environmental reasons and for concern that it is making a settlment even harder. However we are also concerned, like all people, for the economic wellfare of our state and people as well. The 'embargo' on direct flights blocks our biggest source of revenue and economic growth (tourism) to a significant degree. The will and ability of any adminsitration here to limit the construction boom is imo directly link to the general issue of economic growth and the limits that are placed on that in certain areas by the 'embargoes'. I believe a deal could be brokered even outside a general settlment that sought to exchange real and verifyable limits on construction on Greek Cypriot land pre 74 in the North and the lifiting of the embargo on direct flights. However this would require the Republic of Cyprus to be willing to talk to Talat / Turkish Cypriot adminsitration.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Is anybody concerned about the demolition of historical sites to make way for a Turkish flag in Karpaz region? |
Yes many Turkish Cypriot are concerned at this.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Does anybody mind that 700 donums of forests were burned as a result of military exercises at Alevkaya? |
I am not aware of this incident.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I am assuming that these stories I read on the Internet are true of course. And if they are true are we not permanently damaging Cyprus,our homeland? |
We are all permently damaging the world permently in the persuit of economic growth and short terms gains imo. This is very sad.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
You can't imagine how frustrating it is to sit 20,000 kms away and read all this,and feel helpless to do anything about the destruction of your homeland,Erol.And for what?Because Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots are not capable of trusting each other,and taking their fate into their own hands.Because we expect someone else (Turkey,Greece,EU,UN) to solve our problems for us,problems they have created with the help of Britain and USA and other imperialist powers.I feel we are hiding behind wordgames,political manoeuvres,international plots,and watching Cyprus burn,burn,burn.Will we ever find the courage and admit our wrongs past and present and get back and make a go of running our one and only legitimate country,the Republic of Cyprus? |
Again I largely agree with all of this. I agree that both sides need to find the courage and will to admit their past wrongs and to create a new future. However it takes too to tango. The Republic of Cyprus of the 1960 agreements is dead and both sides played their part in that death, though it remains my beleief that Greek Cypriot played a bigger part and had more reason and desire to see it's death. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| Your historical reality and what is actually reality seem to be two different things! In your quest to convince that it is soley the Greek Cypriots that are to blame for the break down of the partnership state you conveniently ignore the actions of Turkey and your the actions of your leaders. Kucuck had something in mind when he was buying up vast swathes of northern Nicosia prior to independence don't you think? And that is just one example. |
I do not claime that the Greek Cypriot are solely to blame for the breakdown of the Republic of Cyprus. I just percieve the reality to be that it was the Greek Cypriot who had more reason and desire and ability to create such a breakdown than either the Turkish Cypriot community or Turkey.
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
As to the gremlins, I am not sure what has been going on since my last post. I hope the site has not been hacked. |
I do not think it has been hacked and certainly hope not. The most likely explaination is that I hit 'edit' to your post instead of 'quote' by mistake and then wrote my message deleting the bulk of your original. If this is what happend I sincerely appologise for this unwitting error on my part. I will certaily be more careful with my posting in the future and be monitoring the site very closely in case there is some outside interferance.
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
Turkey as a guarantor was supposed to bring about constitutional order. SHE HAS NOT DONE THAT EROL. You have to admit that some massive mistakes were done by Turkey. If partition is not her aim then she has a very funny way of going about it! |
No she has not restored a consitituional order and imo she should have made more efforts to do so after 74. I do admit that massive mistakes were made by Turkey and Turkish Cypriot. I just expect the same admission re Greek Cypriot and Greece. I think Turkey and Turkish Cypriot were willing to live with a Republic of Cyprus of the 60's agreements. It was not their 'first choice' but was an acceptable compromise to them. I also think that the Greek Cypriots were not willing to live with the 60's agreeemtns and not only was it not their 'first choice' but it was also an unacceptable compromise, that they agreed to o the basis that they could and would change it later by any means necessary (which is what happend). I think as the Greek Cypriot efforts to change a deal they did not like increased and came into fruition so in turn did Turkish Cypriot and Turkish aims to create partition, by any means necesary, also increase. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
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| mikkie2 wrote: |
Turkey as a guarantor was supposed to bring about constitutional order. SHE HAS NOT DONE THAT EROL. You have to admit that some massive mistakes were done by Turkey. If partition is not her aim then she has a very funny way of going about it!
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You're right. Turkey did not restore the constitutional order. But do you really believe that this was possible in 1974? After 11 years of violence, exclusion of Turkish Cypriots from the decision making, Akritas plan, coup, etc, was simply restoring the constitution possible? How could Turkey come to the island, restore the constitution and simply leave? What would have guaranteed that the same incidents would not happen again?
Maybe you don't realize but 1974 was very costly to Turkey as well both politically and economically. If I remember correctly, 5000 Turkish soldiers died along with massacred Turkish Cypriots. After such a huge cost, Turkey/Turkish Cypriots wanted to make sure that the events of 1963-1974 would not happen again. This meant establishment of bicommunal bizonal federation and it makes perfect sense why Turkey/Turkish Cypriots insisted on federation and not simply restoration of the constitution.
You can argue that it wasn't fair to the Greek Cypriot community to insist on federation. I can probably agree with you that it wasn't necessary to turn 200.000 Greek Cypriots into refugees. But the Greek Cypriot side made huge mistakes before 1974. In 1974, the coup was a huge mistake. After the first phase of the Turkish intervention, your side still had the chance to stop it in Geneva talks. The Turkish side almost accepted to have cantons with local administration but nothing was good enough for your side. Then innocent Greek Cypriots paid the price for the mistakes of your leadership.
Yes, Turkey did not restore the constitution but I strongly believe that simply restoring the constitution was not an option at the time. It's hard to even say that it's an option now when majority of Greek Cypriots simply consider the same constitution imposed on them against their will. |
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-mikkie2-
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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I perhaps detect a certain amount of soul searching and reflection.
I do not accept the notion that the Greek Cypriots do not share blame for what has transpired. We blame ourselves every day. You may choose to believe that or not, but in converstaions amongst Greek Cypriot's regarding the political problem, we rue and reflect on OUR mistakes and we talk about how would things be now if these things didn't happen.
However, we also blame Turkey as well because she has done unspeakable things in Cyprus.
Mete, it is all very well mentioning the Turkish Cypriot massacres, but these have to be put into context because these occurred after Turkey started her 2nd invasion in August. What is not mentioned is the 6000 Greek Cyprots that died and the many that are still missing.
Regarding return to the 1960 constitution, Turkey could have demanded this in 1974. Instead she demanded federation and a mass movement of people. In the end she achived the mass movement of people by threats.
One has to remember that in 1974, before those idiots that insigated the coup, we were close to agreement between our two communities. For me, that is the most terrible thing - to be so close to solution and to throw it all away for nothing.
What bothers me and worries me now is what the Turkish leadership is saying and their wish for a two state solution. Is this what the Turkish Cypriot's trully want? If that is the case then you will have to be prepared for the serious consequences that would bring. You will no longer be EU citizens and your fate will be linked to Turkish accession which may never happen anyway.
The quickest way to bringing about a solution is to evolve the Republic of Cyprus into a bizonal bicommunal federation which is what Papadopoulos is most probably aiming to achieve. That way, we have a legal state which already has in place everything we need (meaning Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot) to run the country. |
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Birkibrisli
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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Location: Australia
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The answer lies in all Turkish Cypriots and all Greek Cypriots realising that unless they trust and respect each other as human beings we will be the losers,not Turkey not Greece and certainly not the EU.Self determination means just that,us determining out own futures.Hanging onto the tails of our Mamma or Pappa will not bring a solution,standing on our own two feet will.The question is,do we have the guts,do we deserve to be the masters of our own fate??? |
Birkiblisi
This is the most sensible statement I have read in a long while. Not entirely sure if you are Turkish Cypriot or Greek Cypriot, but at the end of the day we have to live together if we are to have unification.
It takes bold leaders to do what you suggest. Would the Turkish politicians, after 31 years of not accepting the Republic of Cyprus and feeding nationalistic rhetoric to its population, do a u turn and accept the Reoublic of Cyprus as laid out in the 1960 constitution? This is something they will not do of their own accord. They will have to be forced and that is why Cypriot EU membership will eventually bear fruit in that respect. |
Mikkie2, Not that it is of great importance but I am of Turkish Cypriot background originally from the remote mountainous region of Paphos.But have lived in Australia from the age of 17.
I agree things are complicated with so many players and so many different national interests.The point I am trying to make in my posts is that nobody will look after our own interests if we as Cypriots do not do it.
Politicians,including poor old Tpapa,can only achieve what is politically possible given the circumstances.That goes for Erdogan as well.I have personally grave doubts about Erdogan's motivations.He is not a nationalist like Ecevit or Bahcheli or Yilmaz or Chiller for that matter.He comes from an Islamic background who sees democracy as "a train you take to take you where you want to go" in his very own words.
At the moment he seem to be stuck on his "train" and not able to get off.My theory (and"brother" would approve of this as he thinks Cypriots are prone to conspiracy theories!) is that he is using the EU negotiations to gain time and remove the Army's influence on politics in Turkey,before walking away using the recognition of Cyprus as against national interests.Where will he go then?Towards the Islamic world of course.
Under this script Cyprus will remain partitioned or at best become a confederated republic.A disaster especially for Turkish Cypriots,but also for Greek Cypriots as Cyprus will remain a running boil.Greek Cypriots should support those Turkish Cypriots who want to preserve their Cypriotness by all possible means.And Turkish Cypriots should start jumping up and down demanding to return to the 1960 constitution or a BBF solution as soon as possible. The time is running against those of us who want a unified Cyprus.And by putting too much hope in the EU process to force Turkey into recognition Greek Cypriots might be buttering Erdogan's bread.  |
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murtaza
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Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Does anybody mind that 700 donums of forests were burned as a result of military exercises at Alevkaya?
Is this joke? Turkey payed much for Republic of Cyprus, she even ready to retreat from EU, and you are talking about some donum of land.
Maybe we should just recognize Republic of Cyprus, and retreat from land, I am sure you can built forest without us.
After this much suffer my country accepted, It is most stupid thing to blame because of some stupid forest.
Do you know how much Turkey lost because of your small land? |
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Birkibrisli
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
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| murtaza wrote: |
Does anybody mind that 700 donums of forests were burned as a result of military exercises at Alevkaya?
Is this joke? Turkey payed much for Republic of Cyprus, she even ready to retreat from EU, and you are talking about some donum of land.
Maybe we should just recognize Republic of Cyprus, and retreat from land, I am sure you can built forest without us.
After this much suffer my country accepted, It is most stupid thing to blame because of some stupid forest.
Do you know how much Turkey lost because of your small land? |
Murtaza,thank you for your comments.
I think we should worry about every acre of forest that is destroyed anywhere in the world,let alone 700 donums in North Cyprus.Too much of the environment and historical treasures are being destroyed in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,for us to turn a blind eye.No amount of money poured into Cyprus
can reverse the permanent damage that is being done to our country.To carry out military exercises with live ammunition in a forest in the middle of summer in a country like Cyprus was an act of ultimate stupidity.Sorry,but that's how I feel about it. |
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brother
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Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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| Quote: |
Murtaza,thank you for your comments.
I think we should worry about every acre of forest that is destroyed anywhere in the world,let alone 700 donums in North Cyprus.Too much of the environment and historical treasures are being destroyed in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,for us to turn a blind eye.No amount of money poured into Cyprus
can reverse the permanent damage that is being done to our country.To carry out military exercises with live ammunition in a forest in the middle of summer in a country like Cyprus was an act of ultimate stupidity.Sorry,but that's how I feel about it.
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I completely agree with this. |
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