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David Carter
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Joined: 28 Aug 2005
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The Cyprus Mail today (18 September) published an interesting piece in its 'Coffee Shop' column. Here's part of it:
* Whatever it is, we’re against it
By Patroclos
COULD SOMEONE please help us if they can? We would really like to know why our government keeps rejecting every draft of the EU counter-declaration, which is meant to respond to the Turks’ statement underlining their refusal to recognize our plantation?
On Friday yet another draft proposal was rejected by our man at COREPER, which could discuss the matter again in the coming week. If it again fails the issue will be resolved at a meeting of foreign ministers. What we would like to know is what we want the counter-declaration to say?
That Turkey would withdraw its occupation troops from our plantation on Friday and recognise the Republic the following Sunday? Or perhaps we want to make the start of accession talks conditional on the Turks embracing the Christian faith? Do we want the declaration to be written in more flowery prose or even in verse? Or are we unhappy with the use of punctuation?
Or could it be that we do not really know what we want but are content to pick holes in every proposal submitted by the British presidency because if it is prepared by the Turk-loving Brits we do not even have to read it to know that it is not in our interest.
So if anyone out there knows what we want included in this damned declaration can they please send us a letter telling us what it is? We would be eternally grateful and would publish the letter so that everyone could be enlightened.
As things are, we are pursuing what could be described as ‘spoilt-kid diplomacy’ – whatever is offered to us we reject, but refuse to say what we want. It reminds me of a great song, performed by the greatest political thinker of our time – Groucho Marx – titled ‘Whatever it is, I’m against it’. *
In the many years I've observed Cyprus as a foreign journalist, I've come to the sad conclusion that the local powers-that-be are really interested in a 'solution' to the 'problem'. It's very convenient to keep things as they are so that are always 'reasons' on which to place blame when politicians fail to match their promises in dealing with internal issues and failure occurs.
The Republic of Cyprus authorities enjoy pointing at outside forces 'interference' for all ills, while the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus administration say everything would go right if the embargo were lifted. Both sides have mastered the role of playing 'victim' and turned it into an art form.
Personally if I ran the UN or EU, I'd tell the politicians on both sides of the dividing-line in Cyprus to get their own houses in order, stop boring the international community that has more pressing problems to solve, and pull out UNFICYP forthwith, while ceasing any foreign aid programs.
Then let's see if Cypriot politicians and businessmen can stop talking and act sensibly to resolve differences. If they can't, tough. The 'problem' - if one really exists - has dragged on for far too long. more than 50 years. During that time, the rest of the world has changed in remarkable ways, while the Cyprus 'problem' is almost exactly where it's ever been, with the same old arguments being regurgitated.
Regards
David |
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cannedmoose
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5357
Location: National Forest, England
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| David Carter wrote: |
| In the many years I've observed Cyprus as a foreign journalist, I've come to the sad conclusion that the local powers-that-be are really interested in a 'solution' to the 'problem'. It's very convenient to keep things as they are so that are always 'reasons' on which to place blame when politicians fail to match their promises in dealing with internal issues and failure occurs. |
In the few years that I've been studying Cyprus as a profession, I've reached much the same conclusion - my comments here are aimed exclusively at the Greek Cypriot side, but I'm sure that a similar perspective exists in the north.
The politicians like to present themselves as striving for a solution, but the reality seems to be that they have a vested interest in their not being one. The Greek Cypriot political machine is a very cosy one within which everyone knows their position and what benefits they can extract from it. The parties profess their differences, but on many issues they have a club mentality willing to bargain favours with even those ideologically opposed to them.
To Kypriako has also provided politicians with a very convenient 'cover-all' for the past three decades. For example, the other day when a DHSY politician mentioned that a reduction in the length of national service from the frankly ridiculous 26 months to a more reasonable 14, allowing the National Guard to focus resources elsewhere, what did we witness? Certainly not a reasoned discussion on the merits of the idea, but simply damnation that he could have the audacity to mention such a thing. DHKO and EDEK politicians rapidly pulled the well-used mantra from their lockers that this DHSY man was endangering national security and showing weakness in front of the Turks.
Witness also the whole process of EU accession, when any sensible debate or discussion of the downsides to Cyprus' accession were totally swept under the carpet for fear that any sign of disunity within Cyprus might be used by its enemies (probably meaning the UK) to block Cyprus' accession. Those who were pointing out the difficulties that Cyprus would face as an EU member were decried as 'un-European' and risking Cyprus' accession (effectively risking national security in other words). In no other country was this the case.
It's a sad situation certainly, and one that I don't see ending anytime soon. We all tend to loath our politicians for their greed, their arrogance and their uncaring attitudes. I think Cypriots have more reason than most to hate theirs, but given the popularity ratings of some of the more loathsome creatures in Cypriot politics, it seems they don't.  |
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Kifeas
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| David Carter wrote: |
In the many years I've observed Cyprus as a foreign journalist, I've come to the sad conclusion that the local powers-that-be are really interested in a 'solution' to the 'problem'. It's very convenient to keep things as they are so that are always 'reasons' on which to place blame when politicians fail to match their promises in dealing with internal issues and failure occurs.
The Republic of Cyprus authorities enjoy pointing at outside forces 'interference' for all ills, while the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus administration say everything would go right if the embargo were lifted. Both sides have mastered the role of playing 'victim' and turned it into an art form.
Personally if I ran the UN or EU, I'd tell the politicians on both sides of the dividing-line in Cyprus to get their own houses in order, stop boring the international community that has more pressing problems to solve, and pull out UNFICYP forthwith, while ceasing any foreign aid programs.
Then let's see if Cypriot politicians and businessmen can stop talking and act sensibly to resolve differences. If they can't, tough. The 'problem' - if one really exists - has dragged on for far too long. more than 50 years. During that time, the rest of the world has changed in remarkable ways, while the Cyprus 'problem' is almost exactly where it's ever been, with the same old arguments being regurgitated.
Regards
David |
Will you also include the Turkish troops pull out in your recipe or these are local troops and they can perfectly stay?
You must be joking my friend, with all due respect. With your recipe you will simply do the perfect present to the Turkish Cypriot leadership as all they want is to be left alone to go their sweet way in running "their state" and exploit further the spoils of Turkey's "peace operation" and the fait accompli of the occupation. Who said to you that they care for anything else? The only reason they have been "negotiating" all these years is due to the international pressure that they were getting from all those powers and factors that you now suggest they should all pull out and stop getting involved.
Do you understand what the Cyprus problem is all about?
Do you think it is simply a mere capricious political dispute between the Greek Cypriot and the Turkish Cypriot communities?
Do you know that I have been kicked out of all my properties and my homeland 31 one years ago, together with another 200,000 Greek Cypriots, simply because the Turkey and the Turkish Cypriot leadership wanted to partition the island and create their own separate and ethnically cleansed state and if the international factor was not involved, as you suggest, the majority of the Turkish Cypriots and their leadership wouldn't even bother say hello to me since all they wanted to achieve they did so in 1974? |
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Kifeas
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
| David Carter wrote: |
| In the many years I've observed Cyprus as a foreign journalist, I've come to the sad conclusion that the local powers-that-be are really interested in a 'solution' to the 'problem'. It's very convenient to keep things as they are so that are always 'reasons' on which to place blame when politicians fail to match their promises in dealing with internal issues and failure occurs. |
Really?
In the few years that I've been studying Cyprus as a profession, I've reached much the same conclusion - my comments here are aimed exclusively at the Greek Cypriot side, but I'm sure that a similar perspective exists in the north.
The politicians like to present themselves as striving for a solution, but the reality seems to be that they have a vested interest in their not being one. The Greek Cypriot political machine is a very cosy one within which everyone knows their position and what benefits they can extract from it. The parties profess their differences, but on many issues they have a club mentality willing to bargain favours with even those ideologically opposed to them. |
I other words you are both concluding that the main reason the Cyprus problem has not been solved all these years is because the politicians, more specifically the Greek Cypriots ones according to Moose, have all vested interests in not having a solution.
What you are saying in effect is that the whole issue is simply a mater of Greek Cypriot political will, which did not and does not exist, and that is why the problem remains unresolved for 31 years. What you are saying is that we always had and still have, on the other side, a perfectly willing country (Turkey) to accept a minimally fair, just and logical on it’s own merits solution, but because the Greek Cypriot political leadership has “other” interests, the problem remains unresolved.
What an arrogant and completely disrespectful assumption on your behalf! The 200,000 Greek Cypriots who have lost everything, all their properties, homes and their rights to live and exists in their homelands in the north, lost their right to enjoy their occupied villages, towns, churches and other historical /cultural monuments, and instead they remain property-less and the majority still living in ghettoish refugee settlements in the south, are all completely stupid not to see the obvious that only you the clever ones can see, namely that it is their political leaderships the ones that do not want a solution of the Cyprus problem, which in it’s turn will bring a relieve to their misfortune.
Yeah, 200,000 people (1/3 of the total Greek Cypriot population) are all completely nuts, otherwise how can anyone explain the fact that we did not already have a revolution and a literal burning alive of all our politicians. |
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David Carter
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Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 23
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Ethnic cleansing by Cypriot Turks? If I recall, around December 22, 1963, Greek Cypriot militia put into effect their Akiritas Plan, the purpose of which was to rid the island of the 'troublesome' Turks.
I do believe, sir, that it is arrogant to think the international community must forever and a day continue spending time and effort on a dispute where the solutions offered are always deemed unacceptable by one party or the other.
David
PS By the way, Canned Moose, did you receive the pictures I mailed you? |
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gabs
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Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 98
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David
you're right on every topic, but the problem has been going on much longer than fifty years- more like two thousand years - it would be unpatriotic to give up such an historic cultured struggle now. No politician would wish to be associated with unsuccessfully ending the dreams of their ancestors.
this really is stalemate - |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| David Carter wrote: |
Ethnic cleansing by Cypriot Turks? If I recall, around December 22, 1963, Greek Cypriot militia put into effect their Akiritas Plan, the purpose of which was to rid the island of the 'troublesome' Turks.
I do believe, sir, that it is arrogant to think the international community must forever and a day continue spending time and effort on a dispute where the solutions offered are always deemed unacceptable by one party or the other.
David
PS By the way, Canned Moose, did you receive the pictures I mailed you? |
Yes Sir, it is ethnic cleansing by Turkish troops in summer 1974 against 200,000 Greek Cypriots in order to set up a separate state for a mere 115,000 Turkish Cypriots, half of which were transferred from the southern part of the island, one year after.
In December 1963 there was no ethnic cleansing against Turkish Cypriots, no plan for such and not even an attempt for such. Yes there were violent paramilitary attacks of each side against the other, yes the Greek Cypriots, been numerically more, "succeeded" more casualties against the Turkish Cypriots, Yes there were isolated murderous attacks mainly by irregular Greek Cypriots against innocent Turkish Cypriot civilians, more than what Turkish Cypriot irregulars had "succeeded" against Greek Cypriot innocent civilians, but there was no ethnic cleansing at all. If you can get records of all the accounts of the victims during the entire period of 1963-1967, there were a maximum of 800 Turkish Cypriot deaths and a minimum of 350 Greek Cypriot deaths. Furthermore, it has never been documented with the minimum degree of certainty by any independed source, which side started the shooting in Nicosia first, in December 1963.
Akritas Plan! I suggest you find and read the Akritas plan, as there is nothing in that plan suggesting or planning any ethnic cleansing of the Turkish Cypriots from Cyprus. I also suggest you to read a bit less from the Turkish Cypriot propaganda sources.
Finally, thanks god you do not represent the international community! |
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gabs
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Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 98
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On the nights of November 9 and 10 in 1938 gangs of youths took part in what has come to be known as Kristallnacht. The then govt’s position was that whilst these events were not to be orchestrated they were also not to be discouraged. The govt deemed these actions as being spontaneous civil outbursts.
The govt of the day was the Nazi Party – The events were the government’s organised catalyst to the biggest ethnic cleansing campaign of the last century.
Anyone reading the Akritas plan is supposed to have enough noodle to infer that whilst the govt does not endorse such events it wont stop them either etc etc etc…………….
Common please don’t insult the world and us any longer. Akritas was no cocktail party invitation. |
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Bananiot
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Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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Here we go again, conveniently trying to play down the importance of the Akritas Plan. His author, did not hesitate to refer to it, when threatening Turkey in August 1964 that we would wipe off the map two Turkish Cypriot villages, if the Turkish air force did not stop the bombing of Tilliria. Papadopoulos sent a letter to the American Ambassador telling him that we "have the means and the plan" to do so.
The irregulars Kifeas referred to were the Presidents men who were blessed by him, literally and spiritually, and included Yiorgadjis (a minister in the government), Lyssarides and Nicos Sampson. I, like Kifeas, was displaced in 1974 but I know Turkish Cypriot's who were displaced twice since 1963 and some even three times! These wretched people lost everything, including their prosperity, in contrast to Greek Cypriot's who enjoy a newly found prosperity.
If we must apportion blame on what has happened since 1963 and I want to be honest with myself, then the lion's share of the blame must go to my community and our lust for enosis. We never believed in the Republic of Cyprus and looked at the agreements that bear our signature as a stepping stone to achiving our life-long ambition, enosis with the mother country. This merely fuelled the nationalist voices within the Turkish Cypriot community who started as a small minority but grew into a strong majority as a result of Denktash's manipulation of our constant mistakes.
Coming back to Patroklos's remarks in the Sunday Mail, I will like to point out that his is an anecdotal column which however touches many realities in an explicit way. I agree with him about our politicians. They are a breed that thrives on the Cyprob remaining unsolved. Most of them are bad lawyers and terrible doctors who would soon be out of a job in a free Cyprus where competition will set the rules of a free market. The Cypros has also made them feel very important, but my agony does not centre on them but rather on the inability of the people to figure their game out. We are a spineless lot who are easily manipulated by fancy words and self righteous persons of an obscure nature.
Probably we should count ourselves very fortunate to still have control over 67% of Cyprus following our tragic mistakes since 1955. |
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Kifeas
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
To Kypriako has also provided politicians with a very convenient 'cover-all' for the past three decades. For example, the other day when a DHSY politician mentioned that a reduction in the length of national service from the frankly ridiculous 26 months to a more reasonable 14, allowing the National Guard to focus resources elsewhere, what did we witness? Certainly not a reasoned discussion on the merits of the idea, but simply damnation that he could have the audacity to mention such a thing. DHKO and EDEK politicians rapidly pulled the well-used mantra from their lockers that this DHSY man was endangering national security and showing weakness in front of the Turks.
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The proposal of Disi for the reduction of the service length of conscripts from 26 to 14 months with a simultaneous introduction of a semi-professional scheme of volunteers up to 2,500 is an indebt and mistimed proposal of a populist and opportunistic nature. This why it was rejected up front.
At a time we are in the verge of a new initiative for a solution that will affect among other institutions the future of the National Guard as a concept and as a whole and might also result to its complete dissolution, as it was also envisioned in the ill-fated A-plan, what purpose does it serve to change it’s structure at this stage and commit the Republic of Cyprus to a contractual relationship with an additional 2,500 personnel? There were already serious concerns regarding the professional status and future of the existing more than 2,500 permanent professional and semi-professional staff of the National Guard, should a solution that provided for the complete dissolution was to be agreed last year, now Mr. Hasikos of Disi, who is supposed to be a pro-solution and pro-Annan guy and ex-minister of defense, wants to add another 2,500 permanent staff on the Republic of Cyprus payroll.
Of course the reason his doing it is not because he doesn’t know what he is doing. He knows perfectly well, being an ex-minister of defense. The reason he is asking such a thing now is because parliamentary elections are due in a few months and him and his party want to appear the good side and party in the eyes of the families of the already serving 11,000 conscripts who will se their service been reduced and all the families of the those that will join in the following years, who will also benefit from a reduced service dutation. |
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Bananiot
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Are we on the verge of a new initiative for the solution of the Cyprob? If we were, I would agree with most of the points raised by Kifeas. However, we have never been so far from finding a solution as we are at the moment. Probably, the present situation is the solution and under these circumstances DISI have probably called a good move regarding the future of the National Guard.
I also think that when a proposal is put on the table for discussion, a mature dialogue is needed to pinpoint the merits, weaknesses and advantages of the proposal. Instead, we embark on unproductive searches of ulterior motives (which might exist) aiming at destroying in its birth a proposal that "we" did not think of it first and which might score points for the opponents. This is how Cyprus works and the rest about national interests are just smoke in the eyes of the natives ... |
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David Carter
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Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 23
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Bananiot, I salute you, sir. Your observations are refreshing to an 'outsider' not directly involved in the 'problem'. You will note that I do not apportion blame to one side or the other. Personally I don't think that either administration wants a solution. Thanks again, for a reasoned reply, rather than the invective which usually heads my way from those who disagree with my point of view.
Best wishes
David |
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Mete
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Bananiot wrote: |
I also think that when a proposal is put on the table for discussion, a mature dialogue is needed to pinpoint the merits, weaknesses and advantages of the proposal. Instead, we embark on unproductive searches of ulterior motives (which might exist) aiming at destroying in its birth a proposal that "we" did not think of it first and which might score points for the opponents. This is how Cyprus works and the rest about national interests are just smoke in the eyes of the natives ...
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Good point, Bananiot. Unfortunately, in immature democracies, there are two groups. The first group is the people in power. They always claim to love their country more than others, know more than others, know what's best for the country better than others (along with people who agree with them whether in power or not). The second group is people not in power who disagree with the people in power. They don't know anything, they always look ways to "screw" up the country, they always get paid by either the US or the UK. |
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Bullika
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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| they dont know what they want, thats the problem! |
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David Carter
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Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 23
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So what are Cypriots going to do to change this state of mind? Don't tell me, please, that they would prefer to be governed again by outsiders or expect others to provide a solution. If so, let Greece take over the South and Turkey the North - two-way Enosis, suggested by the British Macmillan government way in 1958, if I recall. Surely Cypriots are mature enough and educated enough to decide the shape of their future? The people of the island can't keep blaming the UK, America, UN, and EU for the situation in which they find themselves for the rest of their lives. The powers-that-be are getting fed up with the petty bickering that goes on on both sides of the ceasefire line. I, quite frankly, long ago came to the conclusion 'no solution' is the 'solution' that suits the politicians and businessmen, whether they speak Greek or Turkish. If there were a solution acceptable to the people, I doubt these local power-brokers would ever again find themselves sitting in the back seats of their Mercs. The closest they'd get to sleek limos would be as taxi drivers behind the wheels of rented vehicles.
David |
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