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Viewpoint
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Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
Bananiot,
You repeat your protestations about Papadopoulos and his non solution tactics. However, we are hearing Edogan talking about a two state solution under a confederation. The Turkish press have been mentioning this, even Sener Levent has written an article in Politis today.
Where are your protestations regarding this? Or is a result of the Papadopoulos policy? Or has the Turkish mask finally slipped? Why are the Turkish Cypriot's not protesting about Erdogans statements? Do they want a federal solution or two states? Why don't we hear Talat protest to the Turks about this? Isn't this a case of Turkey gets what Turkey wants and screw the rest? Don't you think that the underlying problem here is Turkey? |
Just to point out that generally I agree with you on the back peddling of Turkey on the BBF issue, but I think its in response to Papdops hidden agenda of a unitary state or what hes pushing for now recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" which is related and the a return of Turkish Cypriots to 1960 agreements of course adjusted to accomadate Greek Cypriot demands eg less power and representation for Turkish Cypriots. As Papadop is clearly playing the EU leverage game linking recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" to exract what Greek Cypriots want without compromise as invisaged in the Annan plan. Turkey needs at best 10 to 20 years and with the rate things progress in the EU get ready for a very long wait to resolve the Cyprus issue. Well done Mr Papadop. |
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brother
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Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Location: London/Cyprus
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Viewpoint wrote
| Quote: |
| Just to point out that generally I agree with you on the back peddling of Turkey on the BBF issue, but I think its in response to Papdops hidden agenda of a unitary state or what hes pushing for now recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" which is related and the a return of Turkish Cypriots to 1960 agreements of course adjusted to accomadate Greek Cypriot demands eg less power and representation for Turkish Cypriots. As Papadop is clearly playing the EU leverage game linking recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" to exract what Greek Cypriots want without compromise as invisaged in the Annan plan. Turkey needs at best 10 to 20 years and with the rate things progress in the EU get ready for a very long wait to resolve the Cyprus issue. Well done Mr Papadop. |
So tell me VP where we are going with tassos stratergy in your opinion, what will happen when turkey is ready to become full member?
How do you see the future panning out for cyprus ? |
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Bananiot
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Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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For a start, KOREPER seems to be slowly arriving at an agreed counter declaration that will state that Turkey must formally recognise the Cypriot government, but can do so at any time in the accession process. It is plain obvious that there will be no recognition for the next 15 years at least, unless we solve the problem.
Since April 2004 Papadopoulos has failed to push for a solution because he simply does not want BBF. His failed strategy for maximum gains within the EU (return to the 1960 agreements) has created a change of heart within the Turkish Cypriot community and Turkey will exploit this. If Turkey is now calling for two independent states (which is utterly unacceptable) then we have two sides asking for the impossible thus no agreement can be reached. Probably this suits both parts and this is the tragedy of Cyprus. No one is now interested for a solution. The financial circles on our side will not agree to the only solution the UN can push for (BBF) because they are "safeguarding their economic interests" or so they think) and Turkey which has been deguiltified is home and dry and can push now for gradual recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. In other words, partition is the solution and the sooner we realise this the more at peace we will be with ourselves.
Should we apportion blame for this? I think so. I simply remind you that not only we rejected the A. Plan but we failed to negotiate it properly because our President thought he could secure a better solution within the European Union. Well, there is no better solution and what remains is the daemonisation of the Plan and the sour taste for the well meaning Turkish Cypriot's who have realised that we do not want them. More and more people of my community have subscribed to the cry that it is better for the Turkish Cypriot's to stay where they are and the Greek Cypriot's to keep their ground.
Who wants a solution then? The UN and the EU have spent enough energy and resorces for a problem that is not there to be solved. They have realised this and are no longer ready to play the game of solution with spoiled brats. |
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brother
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| I read your posts with interest Bananiot but how will this recognition come about when the Republic of Cyprus is an EU member and can block even direct trade neverless recognition. |
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Viewpoint
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Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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| brother wrote: |
Viewpoint wrote
| Quote: |
| Just to point out that generally I agree with you on the back peddling of Turkey on the BBF issue, but I think its in response to Papdops hidden agenda of a unitary state or what hes pushing for now recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" which is related and the a return of Turkish Cypriots to 1960 agreements of course adjusted to accomadate Greek Cypriot demands eg less power and representation for Turkish Cypriots. As Papadop is clearly playing the EU leverage game linking recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" to exract what Greek Cypriots want without compromise as invisaged in the Annan plan. Turkey needs at best 10 to 20 years and with the rate things progress in the EU get ready for a very long wait to resolve the Cyprus issue. Well done Mr Papadop. |
So tell me VP where we are going with tassos stratergy in your opinion, what will happen when turkey is ready to become full member?
How do you see the future panning out for cyprus ? |
Its the long haul brother, a good 15-20 years, now Greek Cypriots will sit on their lorals and wait for an EU solution why negotiate through UN when you can wait and extract all your demands through the EU.
What do you think will happen brother? |
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brother
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Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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| Viewpoint wrote: |
| brother wrote: |
Viewpoint wrote
| Quote: |
| Just to point out that generally I agree with you on the back peddling of Turkey on the BBF issue, but I think its in response to Papdops hidden agenda of a unitary state or what hes pushing for now recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" which is related and the a return of Turkish Cypriots to 1960 agreements of course adjusted to accomadate Greek Cypriot demands eg less power and representation for Turkish Cypriots. As Papadop is clearly playing the EU leverage game linking recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" to exract what Greek Cypriots want without compromise as invisaged in the Annan plan. Turkey needs at best 10 to 20 years and with the rate things progress in the EU get ready for a very long wait to resolve the Cyprus issue. Well done Mr Papadop. |
So tell me VP where we are going with tassos stratergy in your opinion, what will happen when turkey is ready to become full member?
How do you see the future panning out for cyprus ? |
Its the long haul brother, a good 15-20 years, now Greek Cypriots will sit on their lorals and wait for an EU solution why negotiate through UN when you can wait and extract all your demands through the EU.
What do you think will happen brother? |
Are you suggesting that Turkey will eventually cave in and recognise the Republic of Cyprus and effectively make us a minority and then accept the 'soft' ethnic cleansing of the settlers etc. or ............what??????? |
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Viewpoint
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Mukhtar/is
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Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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| I feel Turkey will initially take gradual steps towards recognizing the "Republic of Cyprus" but will probably realize she is not wanted as a full member in the EU. The bar will be raised time and time again as to not allow entry and therefore she will end up saying to hell with EU I'm off to other pastures. Then where will the Greek Cypriots be? |
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brother
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| Viewpoint wrote: |
| I feel Turkey will initially take gradual steps towards recognizing the "Republic of Cyprus" but will probably realize she is not wanted as a full member in the EU. The bar will be raised time and time again as to not allow entry and therefore she will end up saying to hell with EU I'm off to other pastures. Then where will the Greek Cypriots be? |
Interesting analogy but do you not think that the international community is aware of the Republic of Cyprus plan to take it away fron the UN and put into the EU sphere which would effectively make any solution completely biased in favour of the Greek Cypriot.
Also do you think the recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will be realised in the near future as more countries develope relationships with us, i found it interesting that the Turkish Cypriot have now opened an office in Brussels, is this the EU or UN encouragement? |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| Quote: |
| Should we apportion blame for this? I think so. I simply remind you that not only we rejected the A. Plan but we failed to negotiate it properly because our President thought he could secure a better solution within the European Union. Well, there is no better solution and what remains is the daemonisation of the Plan and the sour taste for the well meaning Turkish Cypriot's who have realised that we do not want them. More and more people of my community have subscribed to the cry that it is better for the Turkish Cypriot's to stay where they are and the Greek Cypriot's to keep their ground. |
Bananiot,
It sounds to me is that you cannot adequately answer my questions. For 30 years Turkey has been pushing for a 2 state solution - partition. You are telling me that Turkey pulled back from this with the Annan plan? And now all of a sudden Turkey changes tack and talks about a two state solution under a confederation! This is what Denktas has wanted all along. TURKISH POLICY HAS NOT CHANGED. Irrespective of whether we are 'spolied brats' for wanting basic rights and freedoms for our country, Turkey is still pursuing Taksim. That is the problem, irrespective of whether we want (or not) a BBF solution. Your cries of whoe regarding our perceived inability to negotiate the Annan plan amount to nothing in my opinion because Turkey never wanted it to be negotatiated in the way we would have desired - ie to bring about a bicommunal, bizonal FEDERAL solution to our problem.
The Turkish mask has finally slipped. Accept it for what it is. |
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Bananiot
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Brother, I cannot see how Turkey can recognise the Republic of Cyprus before a solution is reached. God knows how things will stand after 15 or so years.
Mikkie, we can easily convince ourselves that Turkey's policy has not changed after 31 years. This is easy. The object of the exercise is to convince the others. Those that matter. This is the hard part.
If indeed Turkey has not changed over the years then expect Papadopoulos to make another bold attempt, like the one in December 2003, when he called on the SG to urgently convene talks because Cyprus was in danger of europartition. At that moment he entertained the notion that Turkey had not changed and Denktash would lift us out of a predicament like he did on numerous occasions, leaving the world to believe that the Turks were the culprits that wanted nothing to do with the solution.
Papadopoulos should uncover the dirty role of Erdogan and call for negotiations where the intransigence of the Turks will shine out. Somehow, I do not believe he will make the same mistake. |
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brother
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| Bananiot wrote: |
Brother, I cannot see how Turkey can recognise the Republic of Cyprus before a solution is reached. God knows how things will stand after 15 or so years.
Mikkie, we can easily convince ourselves that Turkey's policy has not changed after 31 years. This is easy. The object of the exercise is to convince the others. Those that matter. This is the hard part.
If indeed Turkey has not changed over the years then expect Papadopoulos to make another bold attempt, like the one in December 2003, when he called on the SG to urgently convene talks because Cyprus was in danger of europartition. At that moment he entertained the notion that Turkey had not changed and Denktash would lift us out of a predicament like he did on numerous occasions, leaving the world to believe that the Turks were the culprits that wanted nothing to do with the solution.
Papadopoulos should uncover the dirty role of Erdogan and call for negotiations where the intransigence of the Turks will shine out. Somehow, I do not believe he will make the same mistake. |
And do you think tassos will ever approach the idea of referandum while he is in power, i know like many others that the Turkish Cypriot will accept a decent plan and will also accept to lose a little so we all win, but tassos will not give an inch, for him it will be all or nothing hence i think he will soon resort to his old tactics and Erdogan probably can't believe his luck that tassos is giving him the right to shoot him down. |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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Brother,
As a Turkish Cypriot that wants unification ( I assume that you do!) you should be VERY worried about the stance that Turkey is taking.
This is deception on a grand scale. It is not only deception of the Greek Cypriots who want unification it is also a deception of the Turkish Cypriot's who were being led to believe that they were being offered unification under a federal structure. Whether the US/UK have been deceived also or if they are complicit in this I don't know. One thing is for sure - the Cypriots (Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot) are being taken for a ride.
Clearly, Erdogans statements and ultimatum to Papadopoulos shows that Turkish policy is geared towards a two state solution - partition. The Greek Cypriots will never accept this. We will never capitulate in the manner that Turkey wishes - to effect a 2 state solution without paying a price.
If the Turkish Cypriots wish to keep the Cypriot label they should also never accept this. In my view our common enemy is Turkey! |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| Quote: |
| Just to point out that generally I agree with you on the back peddling of Turkey on the BBF issue, but I think its in response to Papdops hidden agenda of a unitary state or what hes pushing for now recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" which is related and the a return of Turkish Cypriots to 1960 agreements of course adjusted to accomadate Greek Cypriot demands eg less power and representation for Turkish Cypriots. As Papadop is clearly playing the EU leverage game linking recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" to exract what Greek Cypriots want without compromise as invisaged in the Annan plan. Turkey needs at best 10 to 20 years and with the rate things progress in the EU get ready for a very long wait to resolve the Cyprus issue. Well done Mr Papadop. |
What on earth are you talking about? Where is Papadopoulos demanding that Turkish Cypriots re-enter the RoCy with less power and representation? The way I see it is Papadopoulos envisages the evolution of the RoCy into a bizonal bicommunal federation. Remember that you are still citizens of the RoCy and by definition EU citizens. Anything that disolves it, or a virgin birth as they call it, will render Cyprus impotent and with the possibility that any solution will not be put into practice by Turkey. We would become a hostage to Turkeys EU path! That is the point and that is the problem. |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Just to point out that generally I agree with you on the back peddling of Turkey on the BBF issue, but I think its in response to Papdops hidden agenda of a unitary state or what hes pushing for now recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" which is related and the a return of Turkish Cypriots to 1960 agreements of course adjusted to accomadate Greek Cypriot demands eg less power and representation for Turkish Cypriots. As Papadop is clearly playing the EU leverage game linking recognition of the "Republic of Cyprus" to exract what Greek Cypriots want without compromise as invisaged in the Annan plan. Turkey needs at best 10 to 20 years and with the rate things progress in the EU get ready for a very long wait to resolve the Cyprus issue. Well done Mr Papadop. |
What on earth are you talking about? Where is Papadopoulos demanding that Turkish Cypriots re-enter the RoCy with less power and representation? The way I see it is Papadopoulos envisages the evolution of the RoCy into a bizonal bicommunal federation. Remember that you are still citizens of the RoCy and by definition EU citizens. Anything that disolves it, or a virgin birth as they call it, will render Cyprus impotent and with the possibility that any solution will not be put into practice by Turkey. We would become a hostage to Turkeys EU path! That is the point and that is the problem. |
Cant you see that the recognition and normalisation of relations the opening of ports and diplomatic representation, the "Republic of Cyprus" will then pursue the removal of troops from our recognized sovereign land, remove settlers, etc etc then Turkish Cypriots will be invited to go back to 1960 agreements only if the accept amendments to veto rights and government representation, return of land etc etc.
So to put it more simply Papdop is using EU leverage to move the issue away from the UN for obvious reasons to obtain maximum demands for Greek Cypriots...is this the EU solution?? |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| Quote: |
Cant you see that the recognition and normalisation of relations the opening of ports and diplomatic representation, the "Republic of Cyprus" will then pursue the removal of troops from our recognized sovereign land, remove settlers, etc etc then Turkish Cypriots will be invited to go back to 1960 agreements only if the accept amendments to veto rights and government representation, return of land etc etc.
So to put it more simply Papdop is using EU leverage to move the issue away from the UN for obvious reasons to obtain maximum demands for Greek Cypriots...is this the EU solution?? |
Recognised sovereign land? Are you joking? Your pariah state based on theft! Obviously Cyprus is putting the pressure on Turkey to abandon the long held goal of partition. You cannot blame them for douing this.
VP, what you are saying is simply speculation and rumourmongering. I bet you if the Turkish Cypriot's demanded their return to the 1960 constitution the international community would back you 100%! But as your leadership does not see the benfits of doing this and their greed in wanting to keep what Turkey so generously took from us and gave to you, then I do not see that happening unless the circumstances are such that it becomes attractive to do so. |
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