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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| RudeGal wrote: |
| pg wrote: |
Do you mean that the Turkish Cypriot community has shown commitment to a solution?
To start with, the Annan plan is not the same as a solution (and just remember I was for it). For a community to show commitment to a solution should mean showing commitment towards finding a mutually agreed solution - nothing else. With that definition I might say that the Turkish Cypriot community showed commitment before the referendum, but hardly after.
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pg, I disagree, lots of things can be a solution - even ones violently forced on others. They may be fair or not, supported by all or not, but if it ends a problem (though may start others!) it is a solution. How long such a solution is supported is also irrelevant. |
We have had one of those violently enforced solutions for more than 33 years..., but it doesn't really count as a solution anymore. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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double post
Last edited by cypezokyli on Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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nteresting article:
| Quote: |
Ikea sparks new row in Cyprus politics
By Dominic Laurie
Europe business reporter, BBC News, Cyprus
The story begins in September 2007, when Ikea opened its first outlet in Cyprus, in a business park on the edge of the capital, Nicosia. |
| Quote: |
Cross-border appeal
However, it's not just people in the south of the island who came flocking to the store when it opened. The Turkish Cypriots in the north did too.
And despite the beaurocratic hassles of coming through the UN buffer zone just to go shopping, you can understand why they have.
The northern Cypriot "state" is not officially recognised by any country except Turkey, so trade from abroad is restricted. Drive around and you'll see few western brand names (though a Nike store has opened in the last few weeks).
There's often little choice, and what there is, is pricey.
At a restaurant in the Turkish side of Nicosia, diners told me this made furnishing a house or an office both expensive and difficult.
So when the Swedish knights in blue and yellow invaded the small Mediterranean island, many northern Cypriots said, "Hallelujah."
Cheap branded goods to furnish our homes right on our doorstep, just a few miles away, they thought.
The currency they use, the Turkish lira, has also strengthened in the last year, after decades of devaluation, so their purchasing power for southern Cypriot goods has suddenly, and unexpectedly, improved.
Import rules
The trouble is, as is so often the case here, international politics has got in the way of a good deal.
There's a UN-administered buffer zone in between them and the store, with some very eagle-eyed customs officers on both sides of it.
And when the Turkish ones spot Ikea bags, these get special treatment and are often confiscated.
That's because of a rather odd rule that's started to be enforced recently. To bring household furniture into Northern Cyprus, even a 10-euro lamp from Ikea, you need an import licence.
An official from the Turkish Cypriot Ministry of Finance explained the rules to me.
Any resident of Northern Cyprus coming across from the south can bring in most types of goods worth up to 135 euros without incurring financial penalties. This covers your personal belongings, items you bought for yourself and gifts for others.
Anything over the 135-euro level, you have to pay 30% tax. So when the Ikea opened in September, people thought they'd be OK as long as they didn't spend over the limit.
Soon after, hundreds of people started crossing the buffer zone back into the North with the blue-and-yellow bags full of goodies to fill their house with.
However, after a few weeks, those same shoppers were getting searched and their purchases taken away. Why, if an import licence was only needed for electronic goods?
Competition
At the start of December, the minister of finance "clarified" the situation. He said a licence was now also needed for household furnishings too, whatever the value.
To get one, you need to apply to the ministry of trade in Northern Cyprus in advance of your shopping trip, and it's by no means certain you will get one.
Most Northern Cypriot fans of the store have now given up on going to Ikea.
Many are suspicious about the motives for the effective ban. One theory is that the authorities have given in to pressure from businesses in the North who've been used to little, if any, competition.
And given the amount people often spend in Ikea, perhaps these retailers have cause to be concerned about just how much business they could lose to the chain.
Ikea isn't popular with everyone, of course. Some design purists complain its styles are slowly encroaching into every living room, making every house across the world look the same.
Perhaps these people should consider visiting Northern Cyprus in 2008, because, for the time being at least, there's little danger of the trend spreading here. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7176583.stm
no comment really.
the underlined part sais it all.
and if we would make an effort to seriously discuss this topic we would find that the driving force behind it is business - not politics. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 845
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Import Licence to take goods from your own country to your own country!!! And why, because in Cyprus there are two states, the foreigners shouldn't forget that, Turkish Cypriots neither.
Proudly TURKISHRNC forever and bloody Greeks stop isolating us. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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the same things we do in the south.
anytime you listen about "illegal trading" of a specific good from the dead zone, be sure that it is some Greek Cypriot businessmen whose interests are hurt that stir that in the news.
If i am not mistaken (i am not 100% sure)even the embargos , were the result of Greek Cypriot businessmen in england. If thats the case we learn two things:
that the embargoes (we so strongly support) were the result of business interests and not our clever politicians tactic. we nevertheless support them as if it is a "national interest" , and Turkish Cypriots really believe that we want to keep them poor.
the second is that the embargoes were not the result of the SC reolutions after the declaration of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". this happened years later but inbetween the Turkish Cypriot economy was no better. while i do not doubt that the isolation affects negatively the Turkish Cypriot economy, this shows something else - that to a big extent, the achievements of the Turkish Cypriot economy are a consequnce of denktash economic policies and not a result of the isolation.
i have already posted this view from a Turkish Cypriot economist. |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| Dhavlos wrote: |
Rudegal, The difference lies with the 'political' level.
The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a 'state' cant be given power cos it would be anti-reunification, but there would not be any problem with giving the Turkish Cypriot component/federal state the power of ercan airport.
Ercan would be allowed to operate if allowed (and i assume operated) by the 'internationally recognised' authority...that being the Republic of Cyprus.
I dont think Greek Cypriots are against Turkish Cypriots controlling ercan/tymbou airport...its the fact that it would be controlled by the illegal 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' (whether it was run by indians, chinese, guatemalans or turks) for now until a solution. If there was someway in enabling the Turkish Cypriots to control Ercan through the Republic of Cyprus and not the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus then it would probably be possible. |
I hear what you D, but I think we fast moving to a position that whatever Greek Cypriot (and others) views on legality of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, it has/was/is the representative authority for those living in North Cyprus and Turkish Cypriots worldwide, and will be until there is a solution to unify.
Very very few Turkish Cypriots would see Republic of Cyprus as their authority and for practical reasons, more & more Govts & bodies are having to deal direct, hence the Taiwan effect on the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
As the UK showed a few months ago, for easy ID (and perhaps a political message a PapaD.) they now use "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" in official docs, the media references Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus/Turkish North Cyprus, etc. The "legality" part of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is slowing becoming a non-issue giving more pressing practical matters. |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Personally I am in favour of a unitary state with no artificial borders along ethnic lines, a state that celebrates multi cultural brotherhood, a type of governance that reflects the will of the people and a state that respects the human rights of all and everyone to be judge by who they are and not by what ethnic group they belong to. |
I totally share your feelings - as a Londoner, I'm proud of my multi-cultural roots, living in a diverse community makes us richer on many levels. I hope one day Cyprus gets there too, but we need a few in between steps to build the trust and love. The EU wasn't created in a day and it's a great testimony to all Europeans they could achieve any unity post WWII. Now look at it - amazing! Cyprus can get there too...
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| That is also another form of sharing power. Sharing Power does not only mean Anan Plan! |
I agree, just we not really had anything else since then. Annan represents 30 years of negotiations and fair compromises for both, by rejecting it, the current Republic of Cyprus Govt undermines its so-called commitment to a BZ BF solution. And more significantly, instead of forging ahead with better unity plans, both sides are now pulling away from Annan and each other (Turkish Cypriots and 2 States, or Greek Cypriots and Osmosis/unitary State).
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Of course I understand, you see it actually had political intentions the friendly aggenst Luton town and it was not simply cancelled because the Republic of Cyprus wanted to maximise the isolation (as some people claim) but because Cetinkaya did not want to recognise and give credit to Cypriot FA but recognise the Turkish Cypriot FA and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus!!! |
I'm sure no-one would give a damn worldwide that Cetinkaya played Luton, but fact Greek Cypriots prevented it made it an international issue. And, if pressing for the restoration of our rights is political (which it sadly is) then yes, politics sadly also had a hand in this match - trying to organise a friendly match where young Turkish Cypriots - none of whom were even born in 1974! Stavrizatz, you would do well to remember that.
The Cetinkaya-Luton match was not about one-upmanship or changing Cyprus dynamics (remember, 3 weeks before game, Cetinkaya chair had attended and accepted trophy from CFA as his sign of good will...). It was merely to give these young footballers a chance to play the world's favourite game with others - just like Greek Cypriots have and continue to do (and they never have to ask Turkish Cypriots for permission!). |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
the same things we do in the south.
anytime you listen about "illegal trading" of a specific good from the dead zone, be sure that it is some Greek Cypriot businessmen whose interests are hurt that stir that in the news.
If i am not mistaken (i am not 100% sure)even the embargos , were the result of Greek Cypriot businessmen in england. If thats the case we learn two things:
that the embargoes (we so strongly support) were the result of business interests and not our clever politicians tactic. we nevertheless support them as if it is a "national interest" , and Turkish Cypriots really believe that we want to keep them poor.
the second is that the embargoes were not the result of the SC reolutions after the declaration of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". this happened years later but inbetween the Turkish Cypriot economy was no better. while i do not doubt that the isolation affects negatively the Turkish Cypriot economy, this shows something else - that to a big extent, the achievements of the Turkish Cypriot economy are a consequnce of denktash economic policies and not a result of the isolation. |
cypezokyli, there are lots of truth in what you write. Turkish Cypriots have a big hand in their own crap economic fate, but Greek Cypriot past/present obstructive behaviour really not helping.
Economic competition scares many Turkish Cypriot businesses - they never really had to deal with it before, but competition is good for both the consumer and for all Cyprus. Thing is, it's not a fair 2-way trading street as ordinary Greek Cypriots get treated like 'traitors' for spending any money in the North, and while Turkish Cypriot border traffic/shopping doubled, Greek Cypriot figs for reverse has halved.
Also, seeing free market economic collapse in the North is not good for anyone - more civil servants, more handouts from (and more dependency on) Turkey, less unity & good vibes. Don't forget, Turkish Cypriot business community is influential and a few years ago, was at forefront of pushing for unity solution. It is not in Greek Cypriot interests to isolate and lose their support... |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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rude gal, let me put it that way
you have the armies and the land, we have the embargoes.
there is no way the embargoes can be lifted with our consent before a full settlement - or at least something (big) in return.
is it nice ?
no it isnt.
as erol said. its not right, but i can understand it.
you mention all the time trust.
do you think the Greek Cypriots trust the Turkish Cypriots that without the isolation they will have any interest in the solution ?
I might, and perhaps a couple of more people.
the majority doesnt.
they need sth in return
so what are you willing to give in return ?
let me remind you that the Galli Confidence Building Measures (rejected by you know who  ) were referring to opening of nicosia airport and in return , to give back the closed area around famagusta.
you chose in the early 90s no deal.
at that point your leadership prefered famagusta.
so it is not completely the fault of the Greek Cypriots |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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I understand it too. It's not hard to undertsand why Greek Cypriots act/think the way they do. But, and it's an important but, Greek Cypriots are in a better position and so to close the gap, they need to giv a lil more at this stage (or is bricks & mortar more important than a life?)
As you know Cypezokyli, Greek Cypriot refugees are only real current victims, as since 1974 most other CGs have gone on to rebuild their lives, enjoy huge economic prosperity and life's other perks. Turkish Cypriots can not. In 2004 they did what the world - and for 30 years, Greek Cypriots - have asked of them and voted Yes to unite the island, make 30K plus people refugees again so return more land to Greek Cypriots etc...what more can they do? And still they are being penalised...for what??? They did not get the army in or keep them there. Under Annan, the army would be gone by now.
We've missed and messed up so much. But yester-year is history, and what matters is the here and now. Have you read the International Crisis Group report? That and upteem other international commentators all spelling it out as most Cypriots should already know, either we find a path to unity in 2008 or its partition.
I'm all for Turkish Cypriots doing a deal with Nicosia airport, Varosha and any other place that has lil negative impact on Turkish Cypriot lives to get things moving. I can't see why Talat and co would not either...So why can't Greek Cypriots stop obstructing things like friendly football? No skin of any of our noses! |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
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RG
are you asking for us to forfeit our ancestral land that has been in our family for over 400years:
I can back to 1643 with my family?
For what?
SO the Turkish Cypriot can have their own little country in the sun?
SO the Greeks can have peace with Turkey?
SO the Poms can still have there bases?
SO Turkey has it access to the Mediterranean sea? AND be part of the EU family?
RG You are asking a lot from the Greek Cypriot refugees to sacrifice?
AND what will WE get in the end?
Promises and PEANUTS?????
As for rebuilding our lives?
Many POOR Greek Cypriot have died heartbroken waiting to return to their homes WHILST the HILLBILLIES in Pafos, Potaras and Lachi became Filthy rich!!!
What a bloody criminal injustice!
BUT what do YOU expect with Denktash, Clerides, Greece, Turkey and Britain?????
Honesty? Common Sense? Justice?
cheers
PS As for the UN they are just a puppet of the 5 permanent members OR they would of made sure Turkey fulfilled it UN resolution on Cyprus 35 years ago! |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| RudeGal wrote: |
I understand it too. It's not hard to undertsand why Greek Cypriots act/think the way they do. But, and it's an important but, Greek Cypriots are in a better position and so to close the gap, they need to giv a lil more at this stage (or is bricks & mortar more important than a life?)
As you know Cypezokyli, Greek Cypriot refugees are only real current victims, as since 1974 most other CGs have gone on to rebuild their lives, enjoy huge economic prosperity and life's other perks. Turkish Cypriots can not. In 2004 they did what the world - and for 30 years, Greek Cypriots - have asked of them and voted Yes to unite the island, make 30K plus people refugees again so return more land to Greek Cypriots etc...what more can they do? And still they are being penalised...for what??? They did not get the army in or keep them there. Under Annan, the army would be gone by now.
We've missed and messed up so much. But yester-year is history, and what matters is the here and now. Have you read the International Crisis Group report? That and upteem other international commentators all spelling it out as most Cypriots should already know, either we find a path to unity in 2008 or its partition.
I'm all for Turkish Cypriots doing a deal with Nicosia airport, Varosha and any other place that has lil negative impact on Turkish Cypriot lives to get things moving. I can't see why Talat and co would not either...So why can't Greek Cypriots stop obstructing things like friendly football? No skin of any of our noses! |
i dont want to go back to who suffered the most and whose fault it is for suffering.
You believe that Greek Cypriots are in better position , we think the opposite.
you didnot answer though the most important question:
what are you willing to give in return ?
are the Turkish Cypriots for example going to loose prosperity if they give in return the closed area of famagusta ?
actually what do they gain by having it ?
| Quote: |
| As you know Cypezokyli, Greek Cypriot refugees are only real current victims, as since 1974 most other CGs have gone on to rebuild their lives, enjoy huge economic prosperity and life's other perks. Turkish Cypriots can not. |
you just wrote :
| Quote: |
| Turkish Cypriots have a big hand in their own crap economic fate |
why dont you start fixing those crap, and when it comes to politics we ll discuss it |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
| you didnot answer though the most important question: what are you willing to give in return ? |
Actually, I did - re-read my post and answer me not in haste!
| cypezokyli wrote: |
| are the Turkish Cypriots for example going to loose prosperity if they give in return the closed area of famagusta ? |
Already answered in my previous post.
Cypezokyli, who haven't answered me why Turkish Cypriots are still under embargo though, what Turkish Cypriots have done to deserve this? If it's Cypriots together, how Greek Cypriots can act in way that still hurts their former partners/neighbours? We don't have to talk about the past, just about the here & now, so why is it that Greek Cypriots object to a friendly football match????
| cypezokyli wrote: |
you just wrote :
| Quote: |
| Turkish Cypriots have a big hand in their own crap economic fate |
why dont you start fixing those crap, and when it comes to politics we ll discuss it |
We are! It's a slow painful process, but we'll get there in the end - Turkish Cypriots have come through much worse in their recent history!
You can know who your true friends are by those who stick by you in tough times, and know this Cypezokyli, pretty much every time we Turkish Cypriots are in a bind, it's Turkey and not Greek Cypriots who get us out. Where 4 years ago Turkish Cypriots were on the streets demanding 'Turkey/Turkish troops out of Cyprus', now we see a very different vibe. Turkish Cypriots are under no illusion who is obstructing them and who is not.
So those Greek Cypriots who think we still deserve the embargoes/have brought it on ourselves, that we are "Mongol invading rapist bastards" or whatever the latest racist abuse I see Turkish Cypriots are being lambasted with on Facebook and beyond..., well you keep thinking those delusional thoughts - all the way until this island is permanently divided...! |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| depurple wrote: |
RG
are you asking for us to forfeit our ancestral land that has been in our family for over 400years:
I can back to 1643 with my family?
For what?
SO the Turkish Cypriot can have their own little country in the sun?
SO the Greeks can have peace with Turkey?
SO the Poms can still have there bases?
SO Turkey has it access to the Mediterranean sea? AND be part of the EU family?
RG You are asking a lot from the Greek Cypriot refugees to sacrifice?
AND what will WE get in the end?
Promises and PEANUTS?????
As for rebuilding our lives?
Many POOR Greek Cypriot have died heartbroken waiting to return to their homes WHILST the HILLBILLIES in Pafos, Potaras and Lachi became Filthy rich!!!
What a bloody criminal injustice!
BUT what do YOU expect with Denktash, Clerides, Greece, Turkey and Britain?????
Honesty? Common Sense? Justice?
cheers
PS As for the UN they are just a puppet of the 5 permanent members OR they would of made sure Turkey fulfilled it UN resolution on Cyprus 35 years ago! |
DP, you are right, it's alot for Greek Cypriots to give up. If I was in your position I would fight for my rights just as hard. Have you applied to the Property Commission in the North? I hear one in 10 cases already resolved - where there's a will...! |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| RudeGal wrote: |
Cypezokyli, who haven't answered me why Turkish Cypriots are still under embargo though, what Turkish Cypriots have done to deserve this?
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Along the same lines, why can't 200.000 Greek Cypriots live in their homes in the north today? What did they do to deserve 34 years of deprivation from their properties? See, RudeGal, Greek Cypriots have the political representation and Turkish Cypriots have the land. Greek Cypriots have the embargoes and political representation as bargaining chips, Turkish Cypriot have the former Greek Cypriot land as a bargaining chip and no side is willing to give up anything before a comprehensive solution. This is it. |
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