Cyprus bicommunal discussion and chat forum : Stop the isolation of Turkish Cypriots

Album

Home

Stop the isolation of Turkish Cypriots
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Author

Message

erolz

Site Admin

Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:56 am Post subject:

Leon wrote:

The disastrous European Union cannt be compared to Cyprus. Why, allow me to ask you, should a minority ethnic group (17%) be granted political equality with a majority (77-80%)? This is not supposed to be pejorative or priggish, it's a simple question.

My view is and always has been that Turkish Cypriot as a community do not need political equality on issues that are not communal in their nature and should not have equality on such issue. However for me on issues that are essentially communal, where how and why you vote is determined by what ethnic community you belong to, then such equality is needed and totally compatible with democratic ideals. The only reason why Greek Cypriot would vote one way on an issue because they are Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot another because they are Turkish Cypriot is when that decision affects them differently and means something different to them. On such communal issues for me one community one vote is the more democratic approach, for otherwise you say that if the two communites want different things as communites Greek Cypriot always get what they want and Turkish Cypriot never do. That to me is not very democratic at all.

For all its faults there is a valid REASON why member states retain political equality as states on a whole range of issues. It is to ensure that larger states to not dominate and force things on smaller ones against their will as states and aginst their interests. This is perfectly democratic to me and a similar principle within Cyprus could also be.

Leon wrote:

90,920 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus birth certificates;

My now dead father has a Republic of Cyprus birth certificate because he was born before 1974. I do not know how the above numbers are counted but I do know that you have to be very careful with jumping to conclusion about statistics - especially when it is far from clear what they represent.

Leon wrote:

79,497 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus identity cards; 49,156 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus passports. Thousands of Turkish Cypriots work in the south and continue to live in the north.

It is true that there is a major difference between the Republic of Cyprus and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. This difference is that the Republic of Cyprus claims to represent and be the sole legitimate government of all cypriots and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus does not. I personally would be totally happy for the Republic of Cyprus to stop making this claim and declare that it represents only those Cypriots in the south and if it did so for it to treat Cypriots from the north in the same manner that the north did those from the south, for I actually believe that such would aid the prospects for renuifaction. The Republic of Cyprus benefits massively from being recognised as the legtitimate government of all Cyprus and all Cypriots. Give those benfits to the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and it too would behave in the same manner. Expecting the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus to behave in the same manner without gaining any of the benefits is unrealistic imo.

Leon wrote:

How many Greek Cypriots have such rights in the so-called 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'?

Actually I think that if you were to declare that as a Greek Cypriot you wanted to live in the North as a Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus citizen , with Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus passport and all the rights of any other Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus citizen the authorites here would be more than happy to accomodate you, if only for propaganda purposes. There are a (very very) few Greek Cypriot who live in the north today in this way and came to be doing so post 74.

Leon wrote:

Turkish Cypriots should be eternally thankful for these rights.

Well personally I do not want or need these 'rights' and the cost of them (supporting the claim of legitimacy of an all Greek Cypriot run Republic of Cyprus) is for me way to high.

Leon wrote:

The reality is, Erol, that the Greek Cypriots are being taken for mugs by the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' pseudo-Government. Nobody from the south can claim such autochthonous rights in the north. This is not just.

No Leon the reality is that the Republic of Cyprus knows it gains much more politicaly from claiming and being recognised as the sole legitimate goverment of all of CYprus and all Cypriots than it looses from having to offer rights to Turkish Cypriot in the north to be able to make that claim. THat is why it does it pure and simple.

Leon wrote:

I'm sorry, but is the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' not guilty of such things? It's damn right insulting to stick such labels exclusively to the Greek Cypriot side.

I think we are talking at corss purposes here. If your position is that we did wrong and stole from you and you did wrong and stole from me, lets sort these things out , then we can talk no problem.

The point I was trying to make was that if your lines is we stole from you but the international community legtimised that theft because it was conveint for them to do so, so you have to give back what you stole but we do not, then my response is - thanks but I think ill stick with trying to get international self intertest to legitimise my theft as well.

Leon wrote:

The Greek Cypriot administration does not totally exclude the Turkish Cypriots, nor their rights.

It has in effect already totally stolen a whole raft of the Turkish Cypriot commununal rights under the 60's agreements. These remain stolen even if and 90% of all Turkish Cypriot return to the Republic of Cyprus and the reality is that if we were to return in such numbers we would be accepting this theft , which currently as a community we are not prepared to do.

Leon wrote:

This cannot be said of the north. The figures that Lobby for Cyprus has given speak volumes for me.

I would say be very careful of statistics - especially those fropm a source like lobby for Cyprus.

Leon wrote:

So, I encourage Turkish Cypriots to come to the south.

Which is encouraging them to accept and write off those communal rights stolen from the Turkish Cypriot community.

Leon wrote:

Hopefully it will drain the north's Government dry and put pressure on the north to restore Greek Cypriots' rights, and perhaps then the Greek Cypriot side will be more than happy to comply.

I am sorry Leon but 'perhaps' Greek Cypriot admistration will restore those things it previously stole if we take all the risk and destory the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and what leverage we have to force their return , is just not good enough. Perhaps we might get back our rights but without doubt we will destory our ability to go our own way if we do not .

Leon wrote:

I agree that Turkish Cypriots should have their rights returned, as written in the Constitution. Nevertheless, the Turkish Cypriots still have far, far more rights in the south than the Greek Cypriots do in the north. You have to recognise this, too.

I do recognise that Turkish Cypriot living in the north have more rights in the Republic of Cyprus than Greek Cypriot living in the south do in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus even after you ignore those communal rights that were stolen from the Turkish Cypriot community. I recongise that reality just as I recognise why it exists and that it exists because ti gains the Republic of Cyprus more than it costs it.

Leon wrote:

we are not continually attempting to strip the Turkish Cypriots of their rights and turn them away from the south. Far from it.

Well you already stole all the main ones way before 74. But even after 74 there have been some further 'strippings' in reality.

Leon wrote:

The numbers will have been pouring in since Cyprus's accession into the EU.

Getting a Republic of Cyprus passport as a Turkish Cypriot if you do not already have one anyway is a practical thing for Turkish Cypriot that wish to travel and certainly since EU entry getting such from the Republic of Cyprus has increased by large amounts. Choosing to live in the Republic of Cyprus and not the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a Turkish Cypriot is much more political a choice and the benefits of doing so as a Turkish Cypriot have not changed much since before Republic of Cyprus EU entry or after it. I do not think there have been Turkish Cypriot pouring into the Republic of Cyprus to live from the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus since EU accession myself.

Leon wrote:

I'm sorry, but you can't go around saying such things without making note of the fact that the Turkish army has been illegally occupying the northern territories since 1974. The Greek Cypriot side will be willing to give back what it illegally stole when Turkish Cypriots show a grounded interest in wanting to re-unite.

But we TRIED to return in 1965 long before ANY Turkish military action in Cyprus and were told point blank only if you accept the theft of your communal rights under the 60's agreements. What has the Republic of Cyprus done to make me able to beleive that now it would give back those things that it previously refused to give me then ?

Leon wrote:

The truth is, Talat would prefer a recognised 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' than a re-united Cyprus, if given the option.

I think he would prefer that than a unifed Cypriot state where the Turkish Cypriot community has to just accept that its communal rights have been stolen and there is no redress. I think it is alot less clear if he would prefer it to a united Cyprus where they were returned. Certainly there can be no doubt that we prefered a united cyprus as outlined in the Annan Plan (whihc whatever its faults WOULD have been a damm sight more united than we are today) than the current status quo, as it is clear that TP did not want such a united Cyprus more than the current status quo.

Leon wrote:

That's a messy assumption. Read properly before you make accusations. I really don't think that the north is isolated at all Rolling Eyes

Well it's not just me you have to convince in that reagrd but pretty much the rest of the world including the previous and current SG of UN and EU comission. I , like they ' do think that we suffer from isolations.

Leon wrote:

I don't think this at all. I'm insulted more than anything.

I am sorry you feel insulted. I assure you I am not willfully misunderstading or misinterpreting what you say or are trying to say. I am actually trying my best to understand it as best I can whilst also expressing my own views as well.

Leon wrote:

I want you to read the figure I provided. The Turkish Cypriots have far many more rights than the Greek Cypriots and they continue to use the south for work, to earn money, and go back and live cheaply in the north. Do you see thousands of Greek Cypriots cramming themselves into trucks like hillbilly rockers to go and build with autochthonous citizens' rights to do so before going back home? If you won't accept than the south is continually being ripped off, then you have the problem.

I do not accept that the south is being ripped off at all because you gain MASSIVE political value and advantage from maintianing your position of sole legtimate government of all of cyprus and all cypriots. This is why you do what you do as the Republic of Cyprus and not because you are more generous , or fair, or moral or mugs as Greek Cypriot than we are as Turkish Cypriot. You do this because it is to YOUR advantage to do it, plain and simple.

Leon wrote:

They can go to Turkey, if they are living in isolation. They can also go to the Republic.

So I can avoid isolation by leaving my homeland or accepting the theft of my communal rights by an all Greek Cypriot run Republic of Cyprus. Or I can live in my homeland and not accept the theft of my communites rights as a community and live in relative isolation. Those are my choices and none of them great but the last is currently the least of all evils for me and the majority of Turkish Cypriot.

Leon wrote:

It would be great if the Republic was more forward in restoring Turkish Cypriots' rights ,...

Not great but a necessary requirement to achieving a settlement.

Leon wrote:

If their rights are so precious, they would come to the legal south and both sides will be forced into negotiating.

The Republic of Cyprus refused to restore those rights in 65 and it has proved impossible to negotiate a settlement whilst we remain in the north with some practical leverage, yet I am supposed to beleive that if we gave up all our leverage today, and came to the Republic of Cyprus the restoration fo those rights would be achievable by neogtiation ? I am sirry but that is not credible to me and it requires me and my community to risk everything and yours to risk nothing.

Leon wrote:

I'm not saying that the Republic is virtuous and fault-free, but the north most certainly isn't.

No where have I ever argued that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is virtous and fault free.

To be honest Leon I do not think as indivduals we are that far apart. If we accept that you did bad to us and we did bad to you and we must address both these issues , then we are in agreement. Where I do seem to disagree is the idea that we should take all the risk and proactive unilateral actions to address the wrong we have done with you and simply 'hope' that you will then address yours without any gurantees , despite what historical experinece has tought us. I am more of the opinion that what is needed is comitment from both sides to address their wrongs simultaneously and for both to take a degree of risk.

erolz

Site Admin

Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:59 am Post subject:

RudeGal wrote:

Firstly a very happy new year to all TalkCyprus users - may it be a healthy, happy, prosperous one for us all and a year where we finally have a fair, positive breakthrough in our beloved Cyprus.

Hi RudeGal - great to see you back again posting on the talkcyprus forum and a happy new year to you and yours from me personally.

repulsewarrior

Deputy
Deputy

Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1740
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:10 am Post subject:

me too rude gal, i am happy to see you well.

Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Deputy

Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

I do not deny it. I feel, however, that the Greek Cypriot side is at a greater and unfair disadvantage. 90,920 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus birth certificates; 79,497 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus identity cards; 49,156 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus passports. Thousands of Turkish Cypriots work in the south and continue to live in the north. How many Greek Cypriots have such rights in the so-called 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'?

The only group of people within the Greek Cypriot community who are at a disadvantage are Greek Cypriot refugees. They lost their homes and they lost their years being denied of their properties. I feel for those people. The rest of the Greek Cypriot population has been far greater advantage than Turkish Cypriots. They have been enjoying an internationally recognized state for years. So please spare us from Lobby for Cyprus propaganda.

Secondly, how many Greek Cypriots want "rights" in the T R N C? Do you personally want an ID card and a passport of T R N C? If so, I'm sure T R N C authorities will be happy to issue you one. The point is that ID cards and passports are not going to solve the Cyprus problem. Half of Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus IDs and passports today, maybe more but we still have our political problems. We still have a Greek Cypriot only republic in the south and we still have Turkish Cypriots being excluded from this republic. Why don't you point these out instead of IDs and passports?

Besides the administration in the south HAS TO issue IDs and passports to Turkish Cypriots if it is going to claim to be the only legal government of the island. So this is not something they do out of their goodwill but it is something that they have to do and it also helps the propaganda machines in the south.

Leon

Senior Villager

Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 240
Location: England

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject:

Mete wrote:

Leon wrote:

I should've been clearer, but yes, the Greek Cypriot refugees and the younger generations they have created have the greatest disadvantage, although all Cypriots (grecophone and turcophone) naturally suffer due to the ongoing illegal occupation of their homeland.

Mete wrote:

Secondly, how many Greek Cypriots want "rights" in the T R N C? Do you personally want an ID card and a passport of T R N C? If so, I'm sure T R N C authorities will be happy to issue you one.

I don't think this is the issue. How many Turkish Cypriots want rights and ID cards in the south? The fact is Greek Cypriots have no rights in the occupied territories but Turkish Cypriots do in the legal south is unfair and wholly unacceptable.

Mete wrote:

The point is that ID cards and passports are not going to solve the Cyprus problem.

Of course not. I never said they would. But it is most definitely a noteworthy part of the Problem because it is unfair treatment. It is not something that needs to be ignored and it could be a subtle way for Turkish Cypriots to show allegiance to the south. I'm not saying they will or would want to, but it's possible.

Mete wrote:

Half of Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus IDs and passports today, maybe more but we still have our political problems. We still have a Greek Cypriot only republic in the south and we still have Turkish Cypriots being excluded from this republic. Why don't you point these out instead of IDs and passports?

Because Turkish Cypriots' possession of Republic of Cyprus IDs and passports would suggest otherwise. They are not entirely excluded by the Greek Cypriot-only Government. I'm not saying the rights are the same as outlined in the Constitution, but they have rights, many more (and qualitative) than the north would like to admit, granting them the permission to work in the south, live there, have citizenship as any other Cypriot, and work throughout the European Union. If you don't think that this is significant, in the face of the 0% of rights granted to Greek Cypriots by the Turkish Cypriot-only Government, then you are being a tad too chauvinistic for my liking.

Mete wrote:

Besides the administration in the south HAS TO issue IDs and passports to Turkish Cypriots if it is going to claim to be the only legal government of the island. So this is not something they do out of their goodwill but it is something that they have to do and it also helps the propaganda machines in the south.

Well, strictly speaking, it doesn't have to. Constitutional rights were changed and so can autochthonous citizenship rights. I readily encourage more rights given to the Turkish Cypriots and if alluring them away from the north is the way forward, then so be it (although mainland Turks would most likely fill their boots). Hence, Turkish Cypriots would then get the rights they deserve (and in some cases need if poverty is as bad as it is alleged) whilst the illegal establishment will be crumbling slowly. It's propaganda-esque, but no politically name-calling will change me: call it whatever you so wish, if caring for my homeland means being called a propagandist, c'est la vie. The issue I wanted to address, however, was that thousands (five figures) of Turkish Cypriots have rights in the south, but true propagandist machines like ATCA and Embargoed! (what you said about Lobby for Cyprus is utter tosh) will not acknowledge this. They will gag any outspoken critic of the illegal regime with their own anti-Cypriot tripe. I do not support partition, although I support the right for people to support it. I am of the view, however, that pro-partition equates anti-Cypriot, and it is these organisations spreading the propaganda. Look closer to home. I'm not saying the sun shines out of Greek Cypriots' arses, but facts and figures speak for themselves.

repulsewarrior

Deputy
Deputy

Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1740
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject:

erolz wrote:

Quote:

...here is the crux.

By allowing Greek Cypriots a form of representation
of self governance as a majority, the State, the Republic of Cyprus, frees itself from the bias of demographics that are overwhelming. Each National Assembly will serve it's citizens as equals, each will have the responsibility to be credible as inclusive societies, respecting and recognisung the special needs of minorities amongst them. The State, as our sovereign representative, in this manner becomes stronger, better able to defend us in our external affairs, and our Individual Rights.

Land is the issue right now. Forwhich I suggest the addition of enclaves, this time without shame, into our geography: Bizonal.

Politically, the solution has been staring at us in the face since 1960. Now that ENOSIS is won, with the introduction of the Euro a few days ago, we can say EOKA is no more. I hope the TMT will be no more as well, never forgotten, but a part of the past. Denktash and Makarios can be heros, because in the end they chose Cyprus first, and I believe they wanted the best for us. But it is up to us to look at the foundation, its original principals are strong. Thus, our modernisation, and the reform of the Constitution, from it's advent is the basis of any sustainable solution. My proposal is simple and easy to understand. One State, Two National Assemblies: Bicommunal.

RudeGal

Senior Villager

Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:05 am Post subject:

Thanx Erolz & RW for new year best wishes. Nice to have some time to post on the best forum on Cyprus! RW, re your ideas, it is defo a move in the right direction given the current conditions and one I'm sure Turkish Cypriots would not reject. But, whatever the actual make-up of an end solution, the first thing we need is good will and Greek Cypriot denial of our international isolation (and if not denial, the ongoing allegations that they are self-imposed), coupled with negative actions e.g. blocking even friendly matches means the ordinary Turkish Cypriots are so not interested in any sharing with the Greek Cypriots. Why would they be given their past and present experiences? If roles were reversed, would you? There has to be some good will on the ground, some give & take of things that have genuine meaning to the people of Cyprus. Given overall, Turkish Cypriots are at a bigger disadvantage, it is important Greek Cypriots encourage the lifting of some of these isolations which are in line with constutional rights of Turkish Cypriots e.g. separate right to govern their education, sports etc...But even before then, we need Greek Cypriots to start seeing Turkish Cypriots as their equals on the island and be ready to respect their rights and ethnicity. I see no significant Greek Cypriot champion for this!

RudeGal

Senior Villager

Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:15 am Post subject:

Leon wrote:

The issue I wanted to address, however, was that thousands (five figures) of Turkish Cypriots have rights in the south, but true propagandist machines like ATCA and Embargoed! (what you said about Lobby for Cyprus is utter tosh) will not acknowledge this. They will gag any outspoken critic of the illegal regime with their own anti-Cypriot tripe. I do not support partition, although I support the right for people to support it. I am of the view, however, that pro-partition equates anti-Cypriot, and it is these organisations spreading the propaganda. Look closer to home. I'm not saying the sun shines out of Greek Cypriots' arses, but facts and figures speak for themselves.

Hi Leon, I don't believe we have connected on this Forum before. Allow me to introduce myself - I am a member of Embargoed! - and I must correct your comments above about the group.

First, our sole aim is to end the international isolation of Turkish Cypriots/North Cyprus - they have been held hostage to Cyprus politics long enough and any justification for the embargoes ended in the Yes vote in 2004.

Second, we do not support any end political goal for Cyprus (deliberately so) - our diverse members include those that want a united island as well as those that want Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus recognition.

Third, we have never tried to gag anyone - prove it otherwise! Better still, revise your offending remarks, as I'm sure whoever you speak to in the Turkish Cypriot community will confirm the wide level of respect the group commands across the entire Turkish Cypriot political spectrum (as we have-are open to dialogue with everyone!).

Finally, we ran a series of seminars in London in July 2006 aimed at stripping out the myths re: Property Issue that are circulated by both communities. We were commended for our balance by attending members of Lobby for Cyprus!!!

I trust the above will better inform your understanding of Embargoed! - we are NOT ATCA!

Leon

Senior Villager

Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 240
Location: England

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:11 am Post subject:

RudeGal wrote:

Leon wrote:

Nice to meet you, RudeGal. You are right; we have not been in contact although I was aware that you were a Turkish Cypriot and had followed several posts of yours.

I will quote Embargoed!:

Embargoed! wrote:

We want direct flights!: Lobby the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) to enable direct flights to and from North Cyprus. Use this sample letter to tell Dr. Assad Kotaite – President of the Council of ICAO – that everyone from the UN to the UK Government has pledged to do it, so what’s the delay?

Any organisation that promotes and advocates direct flights to an illegally occupied (as according to the whole world but one country, which instigated and committed the occupance) supports the recognition of that land. There needs to be a dichotomy between Turkish Cypriots and the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'. The formers are not isolated, the latter is; the formers are not embargoed, the latter is; the formers are recognised by the internattional community and their voice is represented in many areas, the latter is not and does not; the formers, therefore, do not suffer unethically by indirect flights, but the latter rightfully does.

I will now quote from Embargoed!'s suggested sample letter to Dr. Assad Kotaite, President of the Council of ICAO:

Sample letter wrote:

Turkish Cypriots have been isolated from the outside world since Turkey intervened to safeguard their survival following a Greek Cypriot coup aimed at uniting Cyprus with Greece in 1974, and have had their human rights denied by Greek Cypriots abusing their positions in power since a UN presence was posted on the island in 1964.

This is propagandist material. Firstly, Turkish Cypriots are not and never have been isolated, the so-called pseudostate has; if it is a truly impartial pressure group, politically correct language such as "intervened to safeguard their [Turkish Cypriots'] survival" would most definitely not be used. For logical accuracy and impartiality, why not say "illegally invaded"? This is what happened and it is more revealing of the current state regarding the Turkish Cypriots and the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'. This is quindessentially pro-partition.

Sample letter wrote:

On this point it is important to note that the internationally recognised ‘Republic of Cyprus’ does not speak for or represent the interests of Turkish Cypriots.

This is ridiculous. I strongly dislike the inverted commas around "Republic of Cyprus", which suggest that the Republic is not or should not be internationally recognised; well I never! The Republic is not likely to represent the interests of Turkish Cypriots who supposedlhave their interests met and represented by the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'! Why would they represent people who live in a so-called 'different country' who have no intention of wanting to be supported by the Republic. And how ironic, when the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' does not represent the interests of the Greek Cypriot refugees displaced and homeless from that very Government's eventual creation? The Republic of Cyprus does represent five-figure numbers of Turkish Cypriots, as I have shown in my previous posts on this thread.

This is typical propagandist bull from Embargoed! that isn't really coherent with reality.

It goes on to quote Kofi Annan on the Turkish Cypriots' "yes" vote in 2004's referendum. This is typical anti-Greek Cypriot tripe. Those favouring partition enjoy using the south's response to the Annan Plan to lift the bans on the north and have an excuse for the right to a separate state. If they were really unbiased and working for the good of all Cypriots, they would explain why the Greek Cypriot side rejected the Plan (that vile flag was enough to make me vote no Razz

) and mention how heavily anti-Greek Cypriot it was. Alas, they did not, unsurprisingly. For the cynics among us the Plan seems to have been devised in such a way that the Greek Cypriots would vote no and the Turkish Cypriots yes as a means of gaining their much-wanted independence. Embargoed! is happy to ignore this for its own egotist desires.

I believe in the principle of double effect here: creating a Government in an area that is illegally invaded, or perhaps "necessarily interrupted" ( Rolling Eyes

) will naturally result in embargoes and isolation from the rest of the world. How can an organisation in which many members are pro-re-unification want to legalise direct flights to the north and allow the north's state (note: not referring to the Turkish Cypriot people) to trade freely? This would only gear towards gradual partition and the recognition of such a nation. This is not rationally coherent. To be in favour of re-unification (which would generally be taken to show that that person does not support the independence/legality of the north) is the total opposite of campaigning for direct flights and to lift of embargoes to that very land. Supporting re-unification but also supporting the end to embargoed and indirect flights is as logical and commonsensical as a Muslim cleric becoming the chairman of the BNP whilst still wanting to islamify Britain.

Embargoed! is yet another propagandist machine that spews bull. It is also of the view that there has never been one true Cypriot nation, identity, or culture, which I strongly oppose based on the grounds that it is false and pro-partition. I nearly wrote them a letter in the summer to point out their inconsistencies and I think I will now when I have the time.

erolz

Site Admin

Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:57 am Post subject:

Leon wrote:

This is simply not the case. Just look a Taiwan where many other states allow direct flights yet still do NOT recognise Taiwan as a sovereign state. You are confusing isolation with recognition again , as highlighted by UN secretary general.

By the way the 'whole world' supported the Annan Plan as a viable solution to the Cyprus problem, except for one small state that is.

Leon wrote:

There needs to be a dichotomy between Turkish Cypriots and the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'. The formers are not isolated, the latter is;

When you isolate the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus you isolate the vast majority of Turkish Cypriot. It really is that simple.

Leon wrote:

This is ridiculous. I strongly dislike the inverted commas around "Republic of Cyprus", which suggest that the Republic is not or should not be internationally recognised;

If you believe that legality and justice should prevail over the interests of powerful states and that illegal and violent acts by a regime should not be rewarded by the international community, then an all Greek Cypriot run Republic of Cyprus should not be recognised as the sole legitimate government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots and should not have been since 64, when it was first expedient to powerful states self interest to do so.

Leon wrote:

well I never! The Republic is not likely to represent the interests of Turkish Cypriots who supposedlhave their interests met and represented by the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'! Why would they represent people who live in a so-called 'different country' who have no intention of wanting to be supported by the Republic.

You have the cart before the horse. It is the lack of representing of Turkish Cypriot interest by the Republic of Cyprus since 64 (long before we had a separate state / pseudo state) that led to the creation of this separate state.

Leon wrote:

And how ironic, when the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' does not represent the interests of the Greek Cypriot refugees displaced and homeless from that very Government's eventual creation? The Republic of Cyprus does represent five-figure numbers of Turkish Cypriots, as I have shown in my previous posts on this thread.

You think 10,000 or more Turkish Cypriot vote for the elected leaders of the Republic of Cyprus (even ignoring the illegal theft of Turkish Cypriot constitutional communal rights within the Republic of Cyprus) ? There are probably not more than 1000 Turkish Cypriot who vote in Republic of Cyprus elections - and even those have only been able to do so very recently and after external legal rulings forced the Republic of Cyprus to do so. If I can vote for you then you represent me. If I can not you do not and can not represent me.

Leon wrote:

For the cynics among us the Plan seems to have been devised in such a way that the Greek Cypriots would vote no and the Turkish Cypriots yes as a means of gaining their much-wanted independence. Embargoed! is happy to ignore this for its own egotist desires.

If there was an agenda to make sure the Annan Plan could not be accepted by the Greek Cypriot population , then it was an agenda on the part of your president TP.

Leon wrote:

To be in favour of re-unification (which would generally be taken to show that that person does not support the independence/legality of the north) is the total opposite of campaigning for direct flights and to lift of embargoes to that very land. Supporting re-unification but also supporting the end to embargoed and indirect flights is as logical and commonsensical as a Muslim cleric becoming the chairman of the BNP whilst still wanting to islamify Britain.

It is no more illogical than supporting reunification but rejecting the Annan Plan. I support renuinfication , but not any reunifcation at any price. Whilst trying to reach a settlement I support the removal of isolations on the Turkish Cypriot community (as does by chance the UN, EU , UK USA or in short 'the whole world').

It seems that to you unless someone supports YOUR idea of reunification (ie the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is crushed and destroyed and Turkish Cypriot are forced to return to an all Greek Cypriot run Republic of Cyprus that STOLE their comunal rights and accept this theft) , then they actually support partition. This is not logic but egocentrism.

Leon wrote:

It is also of the view that there has never been one true Cypriot nation, identity, or culture, which I strongly oppose based on the grounds that it is false and pro-partition.

So when was there a single Cypriot nation or identity ? I maybe accept for a brief three years from 60-63 there was a veneer of such, but when else do you think a single Cypriot nation with a single national identity existed ? It is easy to think this proposition is false but can you SHOW it to be false ?

pg

Deputy
Deputy

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject:

erolz wrote:

Whilst trying to reach a settlement I support the removal of isolations on the Turkish Cypriot community (as does by chance the UN, EU , UK USA or in short 'the whole world').

Do you understand why the Greek Cypriot community does not support the removal of the 'isolation' of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus?

erolz

Site Admin

Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject:

pg wrote:

Do you understand why the Greek Cypriot community does not support the removal of the 'isolation' of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus?

Of course I do and I have already said so explicitly in this thread*. I think Republic of Cyprus attempts to maximise the effects on Turkish Cypriot of non recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and maintain as much isolation on the north and those that live there is understandable and inevitable and probably no different to what we would do if in those shoes. Where my 'problem' lies is when the Republic of Cyprus so clearly does this and then tries to argue there are not isolations on the north and those that live there and where there are they are nothing to do with the Republic of Cyprus or it's efforts. It is the sheer brazen BS of the denial that annoys me, not the act itself that is understandable. What scares me is that apparently sane and intelligent Greek Cypriot actually believe these BS denials.

* some examples of where I have said this already in this thread

erolz wrote:

If you say to me that the Republic of Cyprus naturally seeks to maximise the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community in the North to maintain as much leverage as possible , then I have no problem and do not think that is particularly aytpical (we would prob do same in reverse). What does annoy me is when Greek Cypriot tell me the Republic of Cyprus does nothing to maximise this isolation and where it does it is because it fears the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will get recongnised internationally as a separate and sovereign state if it did not seek to maximise the effects. That to me is just nonsense.

and

erolz wrote:

My only 'complaint' is when Greek Cypriot tell me that the isolation the Turkish Cypriot community face in the north are nothing to do with the actions of Greek Cypriot or the Republic of Cyprus at all. If they tell me that Greek Cypriot and Republic of Cyprus quite naturally are not gonna do anything in their power to reduce the effect of those isolation I do not really have any complaint. I just object to the BS that the Republic of Cyprus and Greek Cypriot do not seek to maximise the isolations on the Turkish Cypriot community in the north and with some real effect.

and

erolz wrote:

Like I have said before I think it is perfectly understandable and inevitable that the Republic of Cyprus and other Greek Cypriot entities seek to maximise the effects of international isolation on the Turkish Cypriot community. What does bug me is Greek Cypriot telling me (and the world) that they do not do this when so clearly they do.

So I hope that is clear to you now pg ?

pg

Deputy
Deputy

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject:

It is clear to me that you find the isolation natural. I just wanted to make point of the fact that you still write page after page arguing the removal of the isolation... I find that unnatural. It might be more constructive for you to explain to all other Turkish Cypriots that the isolation is natural.

erolz

Site Admin

Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:06 am Post subject:

pg wrote:

It is clear to me that you find the isolation natural.

No I do not find the isolation 'natural'. I find the attempts by the Republic of Cyprus to maximise and maintain it 'natural'. Just as 'natural' as Turkish Cypriot attempts to reduce and remove such isolations.

Not only do I find it not natural, but following the Annan Plan vote neither does the UN SG, the EU commission, the UK or the USA.

Please do not put words into my mouth if you can avoid it. Thanks.

pg

Deputy
Deputy

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:30 am Post subject:

erolz, in the last couple of post you have effectively said that if you where Greek Cypriot you would support 'the isolation', but since you are Turkish Cypriot you support removing it. Is that double standards or hypocrisy? Sorry if I put the words there again. I just think you are a victim of your own (good) argumentation technique.

Display posts from previous:

All times are GMT + 3 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next
Page 3 of 6

get the latest forum posts directly to your desktop

get the latest album posts directly to your desktop

Link Partners

3205 Attacks blocked