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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1740
Location: Canada
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mete, this is it in a nutshell, it seems.
the machinations of the old farts, our so called leaders and their 'Governments' are anathema to the State. they have it hijacked, and they have held all of us under their subjugation to serve interlocutors over the benefit that self representation can bring to Cypriots as individuals, as well as people (turcophone and grecophone) since 1963.
the embargo is artificial. it does no service to Cypriots, rather it serves those who put being Greek or Turkish first. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| repulsewarrior wrote: |
the embargo is artificial. it does no service to Cypriots, rather it serves those who put being Greek or Turkish first.
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I agree. It does service to maintain the status quo but we need exactly the opposite. |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2876
Location: Australia
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If you invade a country and take a third of it with an army and with the point of a gun DO you expect recondition as well??????Amazing!
The isolation has been brought about by TURKEYS OTTOMAN THINKING and this will also isolate TURKEY from the EU very soon!
So the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus neither worry about isolation because TURKEY will also isolated itself with its non European thinking!
cheers
PS! Let the people go back to their ancestral land in the North and South and THEN lets see IF there is isolation in Cyprus!
cheers |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| depurple wrote: |
If you invade a country and take a third of it with an army and with the point of a gun DO you expect recondition as well??????Amazing!
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What is amazing is that you spent so much time in this forum to know that Cyprus problem is not as simple as you suggested, but you go ahead with your nonsense nevertheless. |
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Leon
Senior Villager
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 240
Location: England
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| Mete wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
I believe the embargoes are on the occupied territory and its false government, not the Turkish Cypriot people
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And where do vast majority of Turkish Cypriots live? Mars? Yes, embargoes are on the "occupied territory" but most Turkish Cypriots live on this "occupied territory" without a real choice and hence live under the embargoes. |
I beg to differ. There is an absolute choice to live there or not, as the figures I provided show. The embargoes are placed deservingly onto an illegal regime. The Turkish Cypriots are legally part of the Republic of Cyprus, the de jure state of the whole island. If they really wanted to integrate with the Greek Cypriots they would do what their thousands of countrymen have done. If this is how the false Government can be broken then so be it.
| Mete wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
90,920 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus birth certificates; 79,497 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus identity cards; 49,156 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus passports, not to mention thousands who now work in the south, many of whom do so whilst living cheaply and happily in the occupied north.
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Ok, many Turkish Cypriots claimed some of their legal benefits under Republic of Cyprus but you know this is not the real issue. The issue is not a bunch of ID cards or passports. The issue is this in simple terms: Are Turkish Cypriots a mere minority like Cypriot Armenians or Maronites or are they one of the politically equal co-founders of the Republic of Cyprus? Can Turkish Cypriots fully participate in the Republic of Cyprus today as it is outlined in the constitution of the Republic of Cyprus? The answer is no. |
Semantically speaking, the Turkish Cypriots are a minority (17 or so% does not equate 80%) and they will not (not cannot) participate in the Republic of Cyprus because of the pseudo-state. As I said previously, if more Turkish Cypriots come flooding into their rightful home, leading to the collapse of the so-called 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus', we will certainly make progression. I encourage all Turkish Cypriots to show allegiance to the recognised state. To say that the Republic is not allowing Turkish Cypriots to participate is somewhat evasive of the true nature of the issue. Recent years have shown that Turkish Cypriots can and do take part in the Republic of Cyprus. This can be justly and properly regulated once the pseudo-state is demolished. How on Earth can you expect Turkish Cypriots to get the exact rights of the Constitution when they are still aligned with an illegal regime? That's ridiculous. Greek Cypriots have given Turkish Cypriots many, many, many rights and chances, which I wholeheartedly support, whereas the north has failed to show any interest in returning them.
| Mete wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
I hate to say this but I strongly encourage Turkish Cypriots to come flooding to the south (better them than an infinite number of Russians, Germans, and Britons).
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And this could indeed happen after borders were opened...Did you ever ask yourself why it didn't happen? |
I may be misunderstanding you. The Turkish Cypriots have come flooding into the south. I advocate this. I encourage it. It is where the Turkis Cypriots belong and it is detrimental to an internationally recognised illegal regime. I want to see more of this. Are you saying that the Turkish Cypriots have not been doing this? If so, you are sorely mistaken.
| Mete wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Integration into the Republic of Cyprus, of which legally they are all a part, may be vital to disestablishing the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'. The sooner the illegal regime in the north crumbles the better. It's harsh, it's not nice, but it may just be the only fair (yes, fair) way to drive towards the re-unification of our island. There I said it!
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I'd love to integrate into the Republic of Cyprus as it was outlined in the Republic of Cyprus constitution. My question to you and other Greek Cypriots is that are you ready to accept Turkish Cypriots into the Republic of Cyprus as outlined in its constitution? My feeling is no. It might sound harsh and not nice but that's the impression I got. |
My question to you and other Turkish Cypriots is are you prepared to give up allegiance to a state which has been illegally f**king over more than 200,000 Greek Cypriot refugees, as well as the Republic of Cyprus on the whole, for 33 years? My feeling is no. It might sound harsh and not nice but that's the impression I got. Only when you do this (as I have said before, by integrating into the south) can it even be possible to restore the Constitution, regardless of whether the Republic wants to or not. Personally, yes, I do want this - so you are mistaken. It just cannot work in such embryonic stages. Bit by bit (maybe chunk by chunk. Wave by wave), I would like to see Turkish Cypriots come and reside in the Republic of Cyprus. The status quo is unacceptable. Turkish Cypriots in their thousands are protected as any other Greek Cypriot by the true Government, as I have shown you before. Greek Cypriots get none of this by the Turkish Cypriots. Quite frankly, they can have their cake and eat it. Many Turkish Cypriot workers in the south do. You have nothing to complain about. |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| If the Turkish Cypriot community wanted only safety and security it would have (by force) created an autonomous area of teh Republic of Cyprus. However, instead with the help of Turkey it did a UDI - which shows the goal was something else. |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1740
Location: Canada
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http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C03E2D9143EE73BBC4D51DFB1668383669FDE&oref=slogin
...read this, and understand how committed the interlocutors are to their own, mutually exclusive, agenda...
The only way that we, this island's dwellers, will be free, is if we choose to exclude them in accomodating ourselves with a State that is free from their bias, having a legislative assembly which benefits from the countervailing forces that have proven themselves to be resilient in our isolation from each other; the founding of a reformation of our Consitution of 1960 by Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, for all Cypriots, with a dignity which advances the Human condition with Grace.
...a Bicommunal State, because beside the central government, the Republic of Cyprus, there will exist self representation for the people with a National Assembly for each (Grecophones and Turcophones), whose jurisdiction is an exclusivity, over its territory, providing for the internal needs of all citizens, as an ethnic majority to sustain themselves, and with respect, recognising the special needs of minorities amongst them. |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1740
Location: Canada
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| Mete wrote: |
| depurple wrote: |
If you invade a country and take a third of it with an army and with the point of a gun DO you expect recondition as well??????Amazing!
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What is amazing is that you spent so much time in this forum to know that Cyprus problem is not as simple as you suggested, but you go ahead with your nonsense nevertheless. |
...the point being, Cypriots, never mind Greek Cypriots are a speck compared to the size, and power, of the illegal occupier.
from this perspective it is interesting to see the frustration of Turkish Cypriots who are apprehensive because they live on an island with a population of Greek Cypriots that by its size is a threat to them. While Greek Cypriots seem to be oblivious to their brethren's plight, they remain preoccupied by Turkey for the same reasons. |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2876
Location: Australia
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RW you are right!
Mete you have to understand we are and will be only a minority (OR should I say 2nd Class to many!
Specially to the Greece and Turkey!
So if theses two so called Mothers of Cyprus don't respect us as a ONE Nation United under the EU with freedom of religion, speech and movement then MAYBE Greece should be kicked out and Turkeys application should be used for toilet paper!
cheers! |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Leon wrote: |
| The Turkish Cypriots are legally part of the Republic of Cyprus, the de jure state of the whole island. |
The problem is Leon that the only thing we can return to is the version of the Republic of Cyprus that emerged after 65. This may be recognised as 'legal' but the fact is that recognition is purely the result of powerful nations giving into political expediency and in the process rewarding Greek Cypriot violence and illegality. The changes made to the Republic of Cyprus in 65, without the Turkish Cypriot communites assent and the demands that the only way the Turkish Cypriot could take their place in the Republic of Cyprus was to accept these illegal changes, were simply illegal. Yet this government was reward with recognition. So as long as you insist on trying to force us to accept a reality where we loose our constitutional rights as a community under the 60's agreements because you manged to use force and illegality to take them and get the international community to let you, we will 'fight' by using the SAME tactics. IE force and illegality and then get the world to accept this.
If on the other hand you can accept that you first stole our communal constitutional rights and that you are prepared to restore those , then Turkish Cypriot could do likewise. You reap what you sow. You gained an advantage over the Turkish Cypriot community by use of violence and illegality and you never worried about it till 74. If the best you have to offer post 74 is 'you' keep everything you gained from violence and illegality , because it was expedient to world powers then to let you get away with it, but we must give up everything we gained in 74 AND everything you took from us pre 74, then it is not a very attractive options, which is why there are so FEW Turkish Cypriot that have taken up your 'offer' to date.
Restore the 60's consitution as it was written and you do indeed throw the gauntlet down to the Turkish Cypriot community to put up or shut up. Just ask us to return and ignore what was stolen from us and how it was stolen from us and you offer nothing except capitulation, which is not very attractive.
| Leon wrote: |
Semantically speaking, the Turkish Cypriots are a minority (17 or so% does not equate 80%) .. |
Semantically the Republic of Cyprus citizens are a minuscule minority within EU citizens, but politically those Republic of Cyprus citizens have a political equality with other member states vastly greater in semantic size on a whole range of issues. No one says that Turkish Cypriot are more numerous or equally numerous as Greek Cypriot in Cyprus but that has nothing to do with them having degrees of political equality.
| Leon wrote: |
| As I said previously, if more Turkish Cypriots come flooding into their rightful home, leading to the collapse of the so-called 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus', we will certainly make progression. |
And as mete said earlier try asking yourself WHY so few have. You may wish to stick to the easy belief that so few have because we are all greedy thieves as Turkish Cypriot in the north. However the reality is not so easy if you really want ot face it. You took from us and we took from you. Either we can talk sensibly about both returning what they took in a practical modern context, or you can keep hoping that you can keep what you took and we will return what we took.
| Leon wrote: |
| I encourage all Turkish Cypriots to show allegiance to the recognised state. |
You want me to show my allegiance to a state that gained it's recognition through manipulation of the political interests of powerful nations and that stole my communities constitutional rights , used planned and organised illegal violence against my community and all so that it could be 'free' to destroy the very state you want me to show allegiance to, and have it subsumed into a state that has an historic enmity to my communities ethnic roots.
| Leon wrote: |
| This can be justly and properly regulated once the pseudo-state is demolished. |
The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus can not be demolished for most Turkish Cypriot until we have guarantees that what was stolen from us, and stolen from us long before we had created a pseudo - state, will also be returned.
| Leon wrote: |
| How on Earth can you expect Turkish Cypriots to get the exact rights of the Constitution when they are still aligned with an illegal regime? That's ridiculous. |
We lost our exact rights way back in the early 60's. When the Greek Cypriot leadership was illegally ignoring it's own constitutional courts rulings. When they refused to implement that which they had already agreed and put their signatures too. When they appointed thugs like Yiorjardis as interior minister and allowed him to set up illegal ethnic based armed militas to put us down should we object to the theft of our constitutional rights. The source of the problem lies with the theft of these rights and until you can talk about how we can know that THESE right will be returned to us , that were taken back in 64 and 65, then talk of us getting our 'exact rights' is meaningless drivel.
| Leon wrote: |
I may be misunderstanding you. The Turkish Cypriots have come flooding into the south. I advocate this. I encourage it. It is where the Turkis Cypriots belong and it is detrimental to an internationally recognised illegal regime. I want to see more of this. Are you saying that the Turkish Cypriots have not been doing this? If so, you are sorely mistaken. |
How many Turkish Cypriot do you think there are that live permanently in the Republic of Cyprus ? You think this number is growning ?
| Leon wrote: |
| I'd love to integrate into the Republic of Cyprus as it was outlined in the Republic of Cyprus constitution. My question to you and other Greek Cypriots is that are you ready to accept Turkish Cypriots into the Republic of Cyprus as outlined in its constitution? My feeling is no. It might sound harsh and not nice but that's the impression I got. |
I am willing to integrate into a Republic of Cyprus without the illegal changes made by Greek Cypriot alone without any Turkish Cypriot consent. If you want an idea of the illegal changes I am refering to have a look here.
http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=13
The truth is that the Turkish Cypriot leadership in 1965 wanted to and request to return to their full roles within the Republic of Cyprus. They were told that they could only do so if they accepted that their constitutional rights had effectively been removed by Greek Cypriot without their consent. Return under such conditions was not acceptable then and it still is not today.
So I am willing to return under the 60's agreements , as the Turkish Cypriot leadership was in 65. The real question is are you (the Republic of Cyprus) prepared to give back what it illegally stole and REFUSED to give back in 65 in order to solve the cyprus problem.
| Leon wrote: |
| You have nothing to complain about. |
All you are telling me Leon is I can have to accept your theft on my communities constitutional rights or continue to suffer the isolations I do in the north without complaint. Well sorry that is not good enough. If all you offer in terms of a 'solution' is I accept your theft without complaint from me AND I give back what was stolen from you by me, or you will continue to try and make my life as isolated as you possibly can , then we are not close to a solution that leads to reunification. However I do believe that what such an essentially hard line approach from the Republic of Cyprus will lead to , if it is sustained as relentlessly as you outline for long enough , will lead to is you getting some of your 'own' medicine. Namely that the theft from you by force and illegality becomes 'recognised' by the rest of the world , because it is expedient for them to do so in the face of your continued intransigence. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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Leon, I won't answer all your points as Erol already answered them the way I would but I'll make a few comments.
| "Leon wrote: |
I beg to differ. There is an absolute choice to live there or not, as the figures I provided show.
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Take me as an example. All my family, friends are in the north. My life is in the north. How on earth do I have the choice to live in the south? Why would I abandon everything I have in the north and live in the south on my own? Sorry but I'm not that idealistic.
| "Leon wrote: |
I may be misunderstanding you. The Turkish Cypriots have come flooding into the south.
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There are maybe about 5000 Turkish Cypriots living in the north and working in the south daily and maybe 2000 Turkish Cypriots living permanently in the south. Is this what you mean by "flooding" into the south?
| "Leon wrote: |
The status quo is unacceptable.
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We agree! But the problem is that you consider only the situation in the north as the status quo and you want Turkish Cypriots to change that. For me, and many Turkish Cypriots, the situation in the north and the south is the status quo and both need to change! Asking Turkish Cypriots to come and reside in the south and participate in a Greek Cypriot dominated republic as a minority is NOT the solution. The solution is a bicommunal bizonal federation that will take people's rights into account along with the realities of today. Anything else is just wishful thinking.
Besides, instead of asking Turkish Cypriots to risk everything they have in the north and come to the south so they can participate in the Republic of Cyprus, why don't you ask the Greek Cypriot administration to make a public announcement and invite Turkish Cypriots to return back to their rightful posts in the Republic of Cyprus? Surely, the Greek Cypriot administration has nothing to lose. Why didn't they do that all these years if they are waiting for Turkish Cypriots with open arms? Moreover, why does it matter where one lives in Cyprus if that person is fully committed to the Republic of Cyprus? As long as one does not participate in the T R N C, what is the problem with that person living in the north and participating in the Republic of Cyprus in the south?
| "Leon wrote: |
You have nothing to complain about.
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This shows your lack of understanding for Cyprus problem and what it means to Turkish Cypriots. |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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Firstly a very happy new year to all TalkCyprus users - may it be a healthy, happy, prosperous one for us all and a year where we finally have a fair, positive breakthrough in our beloved Cyprus.
Re: this thread, I want to commend stavrizatz for starting it and while I don't agree with all his points, the spirit of it is great. Many informed and uniformed views have been put. I just wanted to shed light on the Luton Town FC affair because at it goes to the heart of the isolation/Cyprus Problem issue:
1. Luton Town invited for a friendly match in North Cyprus by Cetinkaya - one of the biggest/most successful Turkish Cypriot teams and historically, one of the 8 teams that were inaugural members of the Cyprus FA and Football League set up in 1930s. Luton Town informed the English FA (as they must) about the match and were given a provisional OK, then the English FA informed the [Greek] Cypriot FA (as they must). They said only if Cetinkaya asked their permission could this happen. Cetinkaya did not, so the Cypriot FA told the English FA that Luton were forbidden to play. The late decision resulted in a total farce for all concerned, as Luton played Luton in an "exhibition match" in North Nicosia.
2. Some other football facts:
* The Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots shared a league and FA until the mid 50s.
* In the 40s, the Cypriot FA applied and joined FIFA/UEFA
* Cetinkaya went on to become one of the most successful Cypriot club sides - they won the PASOK shield in the 50s for most cup wins, even though could only participate up to 1955.
* On 1 April 1955, Cetinkaya and other Turkish Cypriots turned up to find they'd been locked out of the Greek Cypriot [Church] owned stadiums. It was the start of the EOKA campaign and was the first major public rift between the two Cypriot sides
* As a result of this exclusion, Turkish Cypriots set up their own Football Federation and League by the end of 1955.
* Under the new Republic of Cyprus in 1960, the Constitution gave separate communal rights on education, sports etc to Turkish Cypriots. Football came under this banner and the Turkish Cypriots continued with their separate Federation and league.
* When 60s intercommunal conflict started, Turkish Cypriot football league became series of ad hoc matches. I do not know if any Turkish Cypriots played in Greek Cypriot teams/league or Cyprus national team at this time (would be interested to know though!)
* After 1974 and territorial split, Turkish Cypriot Federation & League back in fulll-time swing and they applied and got FIFA special approval for friendlies. This was stopped after Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus UDI in 1983.
* There have been sporadic efforts to end the international football ban since then & last summer proved a watershed moment when Michel Platini visited the island for opening of Greek Cypriot FA's new building. Cetinkaya were invited. Their chairman went and initially refused plaque due to sporting embargoes on his/other Turkish Cypriot teams. UEFA promised to review and push for change.
* Within a month the Luton Town friendly fiasco happens
*However, 2 Cypriot FAs have meeting meeting with FIFA to see how they can resolve this issue. Nothing as of yet - we wait in hope!
For Turkish Cypriots, the Luton fiasco was a big slap - to say it's soured the view of Greek Cypriots for Turkish Cypriots of all political colours is understating it - to stop a friendly fooball is mean-spirited on every level. I mean, this was not the national North CYprus side but one of the original Cypriot teams, so how is stopping a friendly match OK?
Historically, Turkish Cypriots have a right to their own FA and league and it is not pre-cluding national or international co-operation with Greek Cypriots? Indeed, the Turkish Cypriot Federation has even proposed a joint Premier Cypriot league, so why won't Greek Cypriots bite?
Whatever people's views on Cyprus and their ideal end political solution, I hope everyone can agree that life goes on for all and it is in every Cypriot's interest to support the rights and opportunities of others on the island (universal values).
The politicians may not find a fair/agreeable solution for years, but that cannot justify Turkish Cypriots having less opportunities than Greek Cypriots. It is not real to expect every Turkish Cypriot must move to South Cyprus for this to happen - Greek Cypriots must remember, since 1963, for us Turkish Cypriots the Republic of Cyprus is a Greek Cypriot thing - very very few Turkish Cypriots see current Republic of Cyprus as their State. Under Annan, we would have all united for a new Republic of Cyprus, but since that's pie in the sky, Turkish Cypriots are represented by the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus - warts and all!
For me, Greek Cypriots can generate massive trust and good will if they promote the end of this type of meaningless isolation on Turkish Cypriots. It would bring reciprocal vibes I'm sure...One small step for football, one giant step for Cyprus! |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| What I don't get is that why do we have to solve the political problem in order to play sports? Why can't we have a bicommunal Cyprus Football Federation where both Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot teams can participate under the name of Cyprus and why can't we have this federation belong to the EU and not belong to either Republic of Cyprus or T R N C? That way we can have bicommunal games and we can have Turkish Cypriots participate in international games...Why do we need to agree on a political solution for something like this to happen? |
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Leon
Senior Villager
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 240
Location: England
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| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| The Turkish Cypriots are legally part of the Republic of Cyprus, the de jure state of the whole island. |
The problem is Leon that the only thing we can return to is the version of the Republic of Cyprus that emerged after 65. This may be recognised as 'legal' but the fact is that recognition is purely the result of powerful nations giving into political expediency and in the process rewarding Greek Cypriot violence and illegality. The changes made to the Republic of Cyprus in 65, without the Turkish Cypriot communites assent and the demands that the only way the Turkish Cypriot could take their place in the Republic of Cyprus was to accept these illegal changes, were simply illegal. Yet this government was reward with recognition. So as long as you insist on trying to force us to accept a reality where we loose our constitutional rights as a community under the 60's agreements because you manged to use force and illegality to take them and get the international community to let you, we will 'fight' by using the SAME tactics. IE force and illegality and then get the world to accept this.
If on the other hand you can accept that you first stole our communal constitutional rights and that you are prepared to restore those , then Turkish Cypriot could do likewise. You reap what you sow. You gained an advantage over the Turkish Cypriot community by use of violence and illegality and you never worried about it till 74. If the best you have to offer post 74 is 'you' keep everything you gained from violence and illegality , because it was expedient to world powers then to let you get away with it, but we must give up everything we gained in 74 AND everything you took from us pre 74, then it is not a very attractive options, which is why there are so FEW Turkish Cypriot that have taken up your 'offer' to date.
Restore the 60's consitution as it was written and you do indeed throw the gauntlet down to the Turkish Cypriot community to put up or shut up. Just ask us to return and ignore what was stolen from us and how it was stolen from us and you offer nothing except capitulation, which is not very attractive. |
I can accept that. I was not very clear in my last post. I was specifically concentrating on the Turkish Cypriots, though I do recognise that the Greek Cypriots need to pave way for changes too. That's a slightly different issue.
| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Semantically speaking, the Turkish Cypriots are a minority (17 or so% does not equate 80%) .. |
Semantically the Republic of Cyprus citizens are a minuscule minority within EU citizens, but politically those Republic of Cyprus citizens have a political equality with other member states vastly greater in semantic size on a whole range of issues. No one says that Turkish Cypriot are more numerous or equally numerous as Greek Cypriot in Cyprus but that has nothing to do with them having degrees of political equality. |
The disastrous European Union cannt be compared to Cyprus. Why, allow me to ask you, should a minority ethnic group (17%) be granted political equality with a majority (77-80%)? This is not supposed to be pejorative or priggish, it's a simple question.
| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| As I said previously, if more Turkish Cypriots come flooding into their rightful home, leading to the collapse of the so-called 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus', we will certainly make progression. |
And as mete said earlier try asking yourself WHY so few have. You may wish to stick to the easy belief that so few have because we are all greedy thieves as Turkish Cypriot in the north. However the reality is not so easy if you really want ot face it. You took from us and we took from you. Either we can talk sensibly about both returning what they took in a practical modern context, or you can keep hoping that you can keep what you took and we will return what we took. |
We have taken from you and you have taken from us. I do not deny it. I feel, however, that the Greek Cypriot side is at a greater and unfair disadvantage. 90,920 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus birth certificates; 79,497 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus identity cards; 49,156 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus passports. Thousands of Turkish Cypriots work in the south and continue to live in the north. How many Greek Cypriots have such rights in the so-called 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'? Turkish Cypriots should be eternally thankful for these rights. The reality is, Erol, that the Greek Cypriots are being taken for mugs by the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' pseudo-Government. Nobody from the south can claim such autochthonous rights in the north. This is not just.
| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I encourage all Turkish Cypriots to show allegiance to the recognised state. |
You want me to show my allegiance to a state that gained it's recognition through manipulation of the political interests of powerful nations and that stole my communities constitutional rights , used planned and organised illegal violence against my community and all so that it could be 'free' to destroy the very state you want me to show allegiance to, and have it subsumed into a state that has an historic enmity to my communities ethnic roots. |
I'm sorry, but is the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' not guilty of such things? It's damn right insulting to stick such labels exclusively to the Greek Cypriot side.
| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| This can be justly and properly regulated once the pseudo-state is demolished. |
The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus can not be demolished for most Turkish Cypriot until we have guarantees that what was stolen from us, and stolen from us long before we had created a pseudo - state, will also be returned. |
I agree (partly). However, it seems unlikely to be happening anytime soon, and pretty much anything that gears towards the 'correct' state of my homeland is good enough for me. The Greek Cypriot administration does not totally exclude the Turkish Cypriots, nor their rights. This cannot be said of the north. The figures that Lobby for Cyprus has given speak volumes for me. So, I encourage Turkish Cypriots to come to the south. Hopefully it will drain the north's Government dry and put pressure on the north to restore Greek Cypriots' rights, and perhaps then the Greek Cypriot side will be more than happy to comply.
| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| How on Earth can you expect Turkish Cypriots to get the exact rights of the Constitution when they are still aligned with an illegal regime? That's ridiculous. |
We lost our exact rights way back in the early 60's. When the Greek Cypriot leadership was illegally ignoring it's own constitutional courts rulings. When they refused to implement that which they had already agreed and put their signatures too. When they appointed thugs like Yiorjardis as interior minister and allowed him to set up illegal ethnic based armed militas to put us down should we object to the theft of our constitutional rights. The source of the problem lies with the theft of these rights and until you can talk about how we can know that THESE right will be returned to us , that were taken back in 64 and 65, then talk of us getting our 'exact rights' is meaningless drivel. |
I agree that Turkish Cypriots should have their rights returned, as written in the Constitution. Nevertheless, the Turkish Cypriots still have far, far more rights in the south than the Greek Cypriots do in the north. You have to recognise this, too.
The north has been purposely trying to change the demographics of the occupied areas for years and years, taking away more Greek Cypriots' rights and aiming for recognition as an autonomous nation (or Turkish province, given the influx of Anatolian Turks (to the point where the indigenous Turkish Cypriots are outnumbered) and leadership under Turkish nationalist Denktash). This is not evident in the south. We are not continually attempting to strip the Turkish Cypriots of their rights and turn them away from the south. Far from it.
| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
I may be misunderstanding you. The Turkish Cypriots have come flooding into the south. I advocate this. I encourage it. It is where the Turkis Cypriots belong and it is detrimental to an internationally recognised illegal regime. I want to see more of this. Are you saying that the Turkish Cypriots have not been doing this? If so, you are sorely mistaken. |
How many Turkish Cypriot do you think there are that live permanently in the Republic of Cyprus ? You think this number is growning ? |
I wouldn't make an uneducated guess as I don't have any figures. And yes, I definitely do think it's growing. Without officiality, it's common sense. The numbers will have been pouring in since Cyprus's accession into the EU.
| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I'd love to integrate into the Republic of Cyprus as it was outlined in the Republic of Cyprus constitution. My question to you and other Greek Cypriots is that are you ready to accept Turkish Cypriots into the Republic of Cyprus as outlined in its constitution? My feeling is no. It might sound harsh and not nice but that's the impression I got. |
I am willing to integrate into a Republic of Cyprus without the illegal changes made by Greek Cypriot alone without any Turkish Cypriot consent. If you want an idea of the illegal changes I am refering to have a look here.
http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=13
The truth is that the Turkish Cypriot leadership in 1965 wanted to and request to return to their full roles within the Republic of Cyprus. They were told that they could only do so if they accepted that their constitutional rights had effectively been removed by Greek Cypriot without their consent. Return under such conditions was not acceptable then and it still is not today.
So I am willing to return under the 60's agreements , as the Turkish Cypriot leadership was in 65. The real question is are you (the Republic of Cyprus) prepared to give back what it illegally stole and REFUSED to give back in 65 in order to solve the cyprus problem. |
I'm sorry, but you can't go around saying such things without making note of the fact that the Turkish army has been illegally occupying the northern territories since 1974. The Greek Cypriot side will be willing to give back what it illegally stole when Turkish Cypriots show a grounded interest in wanting to re-unite. Unfortunately, the north is plagued with mainland Turks who should be immediately repatriated and allegiance to Turkey is growing. I do feel that the Greek Cypriot Government has been lackadaisical in trying to make progress with restoring the Turkish Cypriots' rights, but I don't see the north even as much as wanting to proceed with Greek Cypriot rights. Let's take Talat on the return of Varosha, for example. The truth is, Talat would prefer a recognised 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' than a re-united Cyprus, if given the option.
| erolz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| You have nothing to complain about. |
All you are telling me Leon is I can have to accept your theft on my communities constitutional rights or continue to suffer the isolations I do in the north without complaint. |
That's a messy assumption. Read properly before you make accusations. I really don't think that the north is isolated at all  .
| erolz wrote: |
| Well sorry that is not good enough. If all you offer in terms of a 'solution' is I accept your theft without complaint from me AND I give back what was stolen from you by me, or you will continue to try and make my life as isolated as you possibly can , then we are not close to a solution that leads to reunification. |
I don't think this at all. I'm insulted more than anything. I want you to read the figure I provided. The Turkish Cypriots have far many more rights than the Greek Cypriots and they continue to use the south for work, to earn money, and go back and live cheaply in the north. Do you see thousands of Greek Cypriots cramming themselves into trucks like hillbilly rockers to go and build with autochthonous citizens' rights to do so before going back home? If you won't accept than the south is continually being ripped off, then you have the problem. Turkish Cypriots are free people. Under the EU, in which they are legally a part, they can travel to any country within the Union. They can go to Turkey, if they are living in isolation. They can also go to the Republic. It's the principal of double effect when one third of an island is illegally occupied. It would be great if the Republic was more forward in restoring Turkish Cypriots' rights, but they are making no effort to move together with us for it. If their rights are so precious, they would come to the legal south and both sides will be forced into negotiating. I'm not saying that the Republic is virtuous and fault-free, but the north most certainly isn't.
| erolz wrote: |
| However I do believe that what such an essentially hard line approach from the Republic of Cyprus will lead to , if it is sustained as relentlessly as you outline for long enough , will lead to is you getting some of your 'own' medicine. Namely that the theft from you by force and illegality becomes 'recognised' by the rest of the world , because it is expedient for them to do so in the face of your continued intransigence. |
I do feel that this will happen, and the Republic needs to quit the sleeping pills. I will say to you, though, that you ('Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' and Turkey) is also tasting its own medicine. Abusing human rights and invading (sorry, I mean "intervening with a peace operation" (one of the many 'peaceful' oxymorons)) another country will naturally result in no recognition and ecoomic isolation. |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2876
Location: Australia
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ALL theses problems in Cyprus are due to the LAND issues ONLY!
Solve that and you will solve Cyprus!
BUT asking the Greek Cypriot to forfeit their ancestral land for WHAT?: Peace? OR Solution? I don't think so!
Maybe Turkey should give back Constantinople JUST to enter the EU!
If I where Greece that is what I would demand and lets see IF Turkey would give do this for peace and the EU?
cheers
PS With Constantinople it DID belong to Greece anyway! |
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