 |
| Author |
Message |
Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
Yes, those 1960 constitutional rights are not absolute but relative! They are a subject to natural law, natural justice and logic!
|
Oh ok. So according to this "natural justice" doctrine, affirmative action in the US is not "natural" either because after all, the best man should get the job and nobody should care about the blacks, hispanics or whatever. And who determines this "natural justice and logic" I wonder? Let me guess. Since Greeks invented the logic, they must know the "natural" form of it. Anyway, Kifeas, that's all I can say to your nonsense. If you don't respect the consitution, then don't claim that it exists. It's very simple.
| cypezokyli wrote: |
1. they represent noone but themselves. the only real representative of the Turkish Cypriots is talat.
|
There's no reason why they cannot represent other Turkish Cypriots. Say one of these people run for vice-presidency in the Republic of Cyprus elections and Turkish Cypriots, both in the north and the south, come to the south on the election day to vote for the vice-president. What's wrong with this scenario? Republic of Cyprus can surely determine which of those Turkish Cypriots crossing to the south are "real" Cypriots vs. Turkish settlers. So what's the problem?
| cypezokyli wrote: |
2. put yourself in the Greek Cypriot position. what do they have to gain from such a scenario ? the Turkish Cypriots will govern the north on their own , and share power in the south. under such circumstances it is difficult to accept this proposal , even though most Greek Cypriots would welcome a return to the 1960s constitution.
|
Well, if you tell to the whole world that the structure in the south is the real Republic of Cyprus as agreed in 1960 agreements, use the benefits of this recognized state in all international organizations, then you should implement what you agreed on, don't you think? Whether Greek Cypriots will benefit from this or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is that you cannot claim that the Republic of Cyprus exists in its original form and at the same time deny Turkish Cypriots from claiming their rights with the Republic of Cyprus.
Besides, I think there's something to be gained from this for Greek Cypriots as well. Greek Cypriots could ask those Turkish Cypriots who want to run for elections in the Republic of Cyprus not to engage in any activities within the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. I think this is a reasonable expectation. This can undermine Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and show to Turkish Cypriots that Greek Cypriots really care about Turkish Cypriots and our problems are not as deep as some make it sound. This can only make a solution easier.
| cypezokyli wrote: |
my question is though : let us assume that they were given the seats in parliament. how would that help the solution process
|
For me, the fundamental problem in Cyprus is the lack of trust. Turkish Cypriots don't trust Greek Cypriots, they think that Greek Cypriots don't want to share power with them and they're afraid living in a Greek Cypriot majority. Greek Cypriots, on the other hand, believe that Turkish Cypriots are going after an independent state and that Turkish Cypriots don't care about a united Cyprus. The past actions on both sides kind of validate these fears. By accepting Turkish Cypriots back to the Republic of Cyprus, both of these fears can be minimized. Greek Cypriots can see that Turkish Cypriots don't really want a seperate state and they're ready to be part of a united Cyprus. Turkish Cypriots can see that Greek Cypriots have no problem with sharing power with Turkish Cypriots. This is another chance for the Republic of Cyprus to embrace Turkish Cypriots, gain Turkish Cypriot trust, and improve the communication between the two communities but once again, the whole opportunity is being torpedoed before it can start. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| Mete wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
Yes, those 1960 constitutional rights are not absolute but relative! They are a subject to natural law, natural justice and logic!
|
Oh ok. So according to this "natural justice" doctrine, affirmative action in the US is not "natural" either because after all, the best man should get the job and nobody should care about the blacks, hispanics or whatever. And who determines this "natural justice and logic" I wonder? Let me guess. Since Greeks invented the logic, they must know the "natural" form of it. Anyway, Kifeas, that's all I can say to your nonsense. If you don't respect the consitution, then don't claim that it exists. It's very simple. |
Nonsense is only your idea that even if for some reason the Turkish Cypriot community becomes only the 5% of the population, it still should be over-represented in the legislature, government and civil force, as if it is the 30% of the population, just because this is what the constitution once said. Affirmative action comes about when a group of people is unrepresented or under-represented due to the way the political system and the constitutional arrangements are designed or drafted, and this (affirmative action to set minimum quotas) is a method to establish natural justice. The case we are talking here is precisely the opposite! We are talking about a situation in which a group of people would be grossly and provocatively over-represented, contrary to any sense or principle of natural law or justice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
|
|
I think the logic way to look at it is that Turkish Cypriots has rights both as individuals and as a community.
We can not say that all rights (and obligations) are on the level of an individual, since then we would have a unitary state (one man one vote).
As far as I can see the Republic of Cyprus is not failing (much) on the part of individual rights - and in those cases it is sorted out (like Aziz and the property cases).
However, the rights that the Turkish Cypriots has as a community, can not be taken up by individuals. The Turkish Cypriot community need to take up those rights - and obligations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
We are talking about a situation in which a group of people would be grossly and provocatively over-represented, contrary to any sense or principle of natural law or justice.
|
Another nonsense! So the way EU functions is against your "natural law and justice". Afterall, Republic of Cyprus gets much more representation within the EU than it deserves according to its population. Wait a minute, you guys also get a veto right to stop Turkey's accession. That's against your "natural law" principle too. Wanna get rid of that natural law and let the majority of Europeans decide if Turkey should be part of the EU? Let me guess. EU is different than Cyprus. "Unnatural" laws can apply there but when it comes to Cyprus, one man one vote is the only "natural" law! |
|
| Back to top |
|
repulsewarrior
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2152
Location: a cypriot in canada
|
|
Like in the Constitution of 1960 we need three governmental bodies (with the right to collect taxes). One which represents all the citizens as individuals without favour, as equals, and two governing bodies to sustain the national interests of these peoples.
We need a new Constitution which will propel our Individual Rights beyond the demographics of the population as a whole, so that it can withstand the forces of change, and so that it is inclusive; ending the monoclonal societies which we live under today. The National Assemblies of either party will have to consider the importance of the rights of minorities within their own populations while they sustain the cultures they wish to promote. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| Mete wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
We are talking about a situation in which a group of people would be grossly and provocatively over-represented, contrary to any sense or principle of natural law or justice.
|
Another nonsense! So the way EU functions is against your "natural law and justice". Afterall, Republic of Cyprus gets much more representation within the EU than it deserves according to its population. Wait a minute, you guys also get a veto right to stop Turkey's accession. That's against your "natural law" principle too. Wanna get rid of that natural law and let the majority of Europeans decide if Turkey should be part of the EU? Let me guess. EU is different than Cyprus. "Unnatural" laws can apply there but when it comes to Cyprus, one man one vote is the only "natural" law! |
Firstly, I rarely talk nonsense, and this is not one of these rare times!
Secondly, it is not my "natural law and justice," but a perfectly existing and acceptable concept in law!
Thirdly, I did not use the term “one man one vote,” not even once, and I find it a very poor attempt on your behalf to mislead by derailing the core of my arguments through the introduction of the above notion, in this discussion.
Forth, the EU is not a unitary nation-state, like Cyprus was (is,) therefore, any effort to draw parallelisms is futile. The two issues and the two cases are unrelated!
Lastly, even if Cyprus does not politically object (veto) Turkey’s accession and even if all the rest of EU member states would politically want it; still Turkey cannot become an EU member! By default and by definition, a country that profoundly violates international and EU law and human rights, cannot join the EU! It is an EU aqui (EU law!) |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| repulsewarrior wrote: |
Like in the Constitution of 1960 we need three governmental bodies (with the right to collect taxes). One which represents all the citizens as individuals without favour, as equals, and two governing bodies to sustain the national interests of these peoples.
We need a new Constitution which will propel our Individual Rights beyond the demographics of the population as a whole, so that it can withstand the forces of change, and so that it is inclusive; ending the monoclonal societies which we live under today. The National Assemblies of either party will have to consider the importance of the rights of minorities within their own populations while they sustain the cultures they wish to promote. |
Ha??? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
Secondly, it is not my "natural law and justice," but a perfectly existing and acceptable concept in law!
|
In a fantasy world, everyone is equal, nobody is discriminated against their gender, religion, ethnicity, the world is governed by a multi-national democratic government that is selected solely by one man one vote principle and everyone is treated equally in every single way you can imagine and nobody feels left out or discriminated. The concepts of religion, ethnicity, nationality all become obsolete and the humankind lives happily there after. This is indeed some fantasy! In this fantasy, there's no need for complicated rules for democracy to work, no need for privileges for minorities, or affirmative action. Actually the term minority will not even mean anything because everyone will be human and nothing else. In this fantasy world, what you advocate (strictly proportional representation) makes perfect sense and what I demand (safeguards) is ridiculous! But we don't live in this world. In the real world and especially in Cyprus, there's a majority and a minority. Minority has historically been afraid of the majority domination. If you care about the minority, what do you do? You provide them safeguards so they feel safe living in the majority. What's so hard to understand?
| Kifeas wrote: |
Thirdly, I did not use the term “one man one vote,” not even once, and I find it a very poor attempt on your behalf to mislead by derailing the core of my arguments through the introduction of the above notion, in this discussion.
|
Ok, but you talked about "over-representation" of a certain group. Obviously, you don't like over-representation and correct me if I'm wrong but you support representation based on numbers. In other words, you support one-man-one-vote. If that's not the case, what are you saying that?
| Kifeas wrote: |
Forth, the EU is not a unitary nation-state, like Cyprus was (is,) therefore, any effort to draw parallelisms is futile. The two issues and the two cases are unrelated!
|
I've heard this argument millions of times and it's getting boring to tell you the truth. It doesn't matter if the EU is a nation state or not. It's the principle of "over-representation of the minority in order to safeguard it against the majority" that matters. The EU applies this principle because being a multicultural, multi ethnic, multi-religious organization, it has the vision and the understanding that "over-representation of the minority" is a good thing for democracy. Actually, it's almost a requirement of democracy. Otherwise the world will be governed by Chinese! So your attempt of dismissing this basic principle as "something that only applies to organizations but not nation states" is futile.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Lastly, even if Cyprus does not politically object (veto) Turkey’s accession and even if all the rest of EU member states would politically want it; still Turkey cannot become an EU member! By default and by definition, a country that profoundly violates international and EU law and human rights, cannot join the EU! It is an EU aqui (EU law!)
|
You completely missed the point! I wasn't even claiming that Turkey can be part of the EU. Actually I think that in light of the recent developments in Turkey, Turkey needs another 80 years before joining to the EU. However, I pointed out the fact that Cyprus can veto Turkey's EU accession as an example of how a minority group can impose its will on the majority and how nobody (including yourself) complains that there's no democracy in the EU. It's the principle of it that I was pointing out but you of course got lost (or rather chose to get lost) in the details in order to avoid the real issue. |
|
| Back to top |
|
cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
|
|
| Mete wrote: |
| Besides, I think there's something to be gained from this for Greek Cypriots as well. Greek Cypriots could ask those Turkish Cypriots who want to run for elections in the Republic of Cyprus not to engage in any activities within the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. I think this is a reasonable expectation. This can undermine Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and show to Turkish Cypriots that Greek Cypriots really care about Turkish Cypriots and our problems are not as deep as some make it sound. This can only make a solution easier. |
this could be a way. because i would also like to see it working.
we could think about how could this work under certain conditions. because if i am not mistaken there are some (or at least one - akici) who also hold MP positions in the north.
one condition would be what you said. that candidates as well as voters recognise the Republic of Cyprus.
the second , would be that there is a minimum participations limit for this elections to be valid. if these people receive 500 votes , it is obviously too small a percentage , for these people to be considered as representatives of the Turkish Cypriot community. the exact number is not significant (we could say 20000 or 30000).
besides from what i understood , the main idea behind this action was to put pressure on both leaders to negotiate. under such conditions our leadership would be under pressure to achieve a settlement bc it was to avoid Turkish Cypriot in parliament with the occupation till continuing. the Turkish Cypriot leadership would be under pressure if a number of Turkish Cypriots participate in elections in the Republic of Cyprus , undermining as a result the official Turkish Cypriot / turkish position. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
|
|
| cypezokyli wrote: |
besides from what i understood , the main idea behind this action was to put pressure on both leaders to negotiate. under such conditions our leadership would be under pressure to achieve a settlement bc it was to avoid Turkish Cypriot in parliament with the occupation till continuing. the Turkish Cypriot leadership would be under pressure if a number of Turkish Cypriots participate in elections in the Republic of Cyprus , undermining as a result the official Turkish Cypriot / turkish position.
|
Exactly. Both sides got very comfortable in their positions and everybody is expecting their maximalist solution fall from the sky. By asking to return to the Republic of Cyprus, these Turkish Cypriots are moving some rocks, forcing the dinosaurs on both sides to move a little  |
|
| Back to top |
|
turkcyp
Senior Villager
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 423
|
|
There are a lot of thinsg that can be said about this issue but it is said before.
The logic is of "Greek Cypriot side is I want to have the cake an deat it too". (Dont getme wirng this is the logic of manyt in Turkish Cypriot side as well).
Those who do not share this logic but want to coexist with teh oterh side gots screved. |
|
| Back to top |
|
pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
|
|
| Mete wrote: |
| cypezokyli wrote: |
besides from what i understood , the main idea behind this action was to put pressure on both leaders to negotiate. under such conditions our leadership would be under pressure to achieve a settlement bc it was to avoid Turkish Cypriot in parliament with the occupation till continuing. the Turkish Cypriot leadership would be under pressure if a number of Turkish Cypriots participate in elections in the Republic of Cyprus , undermining as a result the official Turkish Cypriot / turkish position.
|
Exactly. Both sides got very comfortable in their positions and everybody is expecting their maximalist solution fall from the sky. By asking to return to the Republic of Cyprus, these Turkish Cypriots are moving some rocks, forcing the dinosaurs on both sides to move a little |
I think it would be very good if we get to a situation were we have to choose between a negotiated solution and "1960", and not as now between a negotiated solution and "status quo". However, for this to work there needs to be quite an amount of Turkish Cypriots supporting the move - I think only RTP can do that, but... |
|
| Back to top |
|
repulsewarrior
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2152
Location: a cypriot in canada
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
| repulsewarrior wrote: |
Like in the Constitution of 1960 we need three governmental bodies (with the right to collect taxes). One which represents all the citizens as individuals without favour, as equals, and two governing bodies to sustain the national interests of these peoples.
We need a new Constitution which will propel our Individual Rights beyond the demographics of the population as a whole, so that it can withstand the forces of change, and so that it is inclusive; ending the monoclonal societies which we live under today. The National Assemblies of either party will have to consider the importance of the rights of minorities within their own populations while they sustain the cultures they wish to promote. |
Ha??? |
Correct me if I am wrong, but there exists a communal chamber with two parties, both able to collect taxes and to direct their use. Therefore three govts. Self representation for each community and representation for the individual as equals through the legislature of the Republic of Cyprus. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
|
|
| Anyway, I'm yet to hear one plausible argument on why Turkish Cypriots should not be allowed to reclaim their rights within the Republic of Cyprus. See, it's fine if Greek Cypriots want to keep Republic of Cyprus to their own but at least be honest and don't lie to the whole world that it's the Republic of Cyprus agreed in 1960. That's all I'm asking. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| Mete wrote: |
| Anyway, I'm yet to hear one plausible argument on why Turkish Cypriots should not be allowed to reclaim their rights within the Republic of Cyprus. See, it's fine if Greek Cypriots want to keep Republic of Cyprus to their own but at least be honest and don't lie to the whole world that it's the Republic of Cyprus agreed in 1960. That's all I'm asking. |
Nothing stops your acknowledged by the UN elected communal leadership (don't you have one?) to reclaim the Turkish Cypriot community's rights within the Republic of Cyprus! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
All times are GMT + 3 Hours
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
|
| Page 2 of 3 |
| |
 
 
Link Partners
605118 Attacks blocked
|
Register 
Log in 
Album 
Home