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| IS Cyprus better off or Worse off after EOKA? |
| Cyprus was better off with EOKA: |
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27% |
[ 5 ] |
| Cyprus was worse off with EOKA: |
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44% |
[ 8 ] |
| Cyprus should of Stayed with Britain: |
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27% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 18 |
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Message |
depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2880
Location: Australia
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Thanks Irish Cypriot for your comments:
Now I have a few question that I hope you answer honestly:
1: Have you or any of your relations have a house or property in the Nth of Cyprus?
2: HAS Ireland got military war machines like Turkey and Indonesia 100 kilometers away:
Have you heard of Insurance Policies?
Well Cyprus had one: Britain!
And my friend Britain must be paid NOT revoked:
Also did you know WHO build ALL the Indonesia in Cyprus?
Greece?
Turkey?
Ireland?
NO my Friend Britain:
So that had to be paid: Britain also built ALL the infrastructure in Australia:
So that has to be paid back to Britain one day:
In the Annan plan my friend MY family would never be able to go back to its legally owned ancestral land again!
You Irish are crying over a price of land in Nth Ireland : Go see what we lost and you will commit suicide:
AND we lost it during the agreed UN ceasefire!
Cheers:
PS Give ireland back to the irish! |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| The methods they used for fighting were sabotage and attacks on specific targets. There were no planned attacks on innocent civilians. |
This is just not backed up by documented history of the time. EOKA was involved in the murder of civilians and not just British either. They shot people in the back who were in civilian clothes. They shot women. They executed civilian 'traitors' some of which were passing information to the British and some who were not. Grivas himself issued specific orders in 58 for EOKA to strike against the British servicemen and civilians alike. Soon after two British women , wives of servicemen were shot in the back in Famagusta by EOKA.
Have look here http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6
specifically 'unknown Cyprus TV program part 2' from about 16 mins in.
EOKA, as an organisation, killed innocents and civilians just as TMT did. To me this is just historical fact. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| stravrizatz wrote: |
As far as I am concerned the answer is none. The methods they used for fighting were sabotage and attacks on specific targets. There were no planned attacks on innocent civilians.
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And where do you exactly get your information? How are you so sure that there were no planned attacks on civilians? Just curious how you can sound so certain.
| erolz wrote: |
This is just not backed up by documented history of the time.
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That's true. For me the most valuable source of information is ordinary people who have no political agendas. Sevgul Uludag, a Turkish Cypriot journalist, has been interviewing ordinary Cypriots from both sides who lost their relatives to EOKA, TMT, etc. Since we're talking about EOKA, I'd like to talk about her latest interview.
For those who know Turkish, her latest interview is here: http://www.yeniduzengazetesi.com/index.php/cat/1/int/36/PageName/Haberler
As a summary, her guest is a Turkish Cypriot woman from a village called Menevi (Meneou) near Larnaca. Her father disappeared on 17th May of 1964 near Bahcalar (Pervolyia) village. According to the interview, he was a farmer, he planted and sold vegetables. He was not a TMT member but he did carry bread to TMT members in Larnaca once in a while. One of his fellow Greek Cypriot villagers reported him to some EOKA members and he was killed by a group of EOKA men and he was buried in a shallow grave. She mentions in the interview that her father was working as a policeman in British bases in 1958 and one of his duties was to guard EOKA members captured by the British and he was told not to give water and food to the captured EOKA men, but he didn't listen and he gave water to these EOKA men. After learning that he was a Turkish Cypriot, one of these EOKA men promised him that no harm will come from them to him. It's interesting that five years later, he was killed by other EOKA men.
Interview mentions not only EOKA members but Greek Cypriot policeman as well terrorizing civilians. She mentions a 22 year old newly engaged Turkish Cypriot named Mehmet Salih. He and his friends go to collect wild mushrooms from the fields and his bicycle's tire gets flat. This is around 22-23 December 1963. He sees a police jeep passing by and he waves at them hoping that he'd get a ride to his village. His friends were scared so they hide in the bushes as he talks to the Greek Cypriot police and according to those witnesses, he was shot by the police. His friends were not harmed as they were hiding but one of them got so scared that he migrated to England.
Anyway, this is just one of the interviews of Sevgul Uludag. Just to give everyone an idea on what EOKA and Greek Cypriot policemen did and why Turkish Cypriots were so scared and did not trust Greek Cypriots or the Republic of Cyprus between 1963-1974. Sevgul Uludag has many interviews talking about murders of TMT as well. Although that's not the topic here, I wanted to mention it to let people know that I'm not trying to blame Greek Cypriots for everything.
On a positive note, the interview also mentions how the Greek Cypriot villagers supported her family when her father was killed. She also mentions how the Greek Cypriot mukthar of the village slept in the same room as Turkish Cypriots where Turkish Cypriot villagers were taken hostages by EOKA men in 1974. He did that to make sure they weren't killed. So this shows that despite all the ugliness of the past, good things also happened and after learning what happened in the past, we should focus on the positive things in the past.
I just want people to realize that one has to think real hard before so easily and effortlessly labelling someone or some group as hero or heroes. Nothing is black and white in Cyprus and there are 2 sides to every story. This should be our starting point for any discussion. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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and Mete yet again you mention EOKA B which is totally different organisation to EOKA.
Mete wrote:
| Quote: |
| I'm not trying to blame Greek Cypriots for everything. |
then why do you bother writing the above story? It does not prove anything. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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so once again its a problem of definition.
so what exactly is it that makes an organisation a terrorist one ? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
| so once again its a problem of definition. |
stavrizatz claimed there were no planned attacks on innocent civilians. I personally do not think this is true though of course one can argue what 'planned' means in this context and what the difference is between a civilian and an 'innocent' civilian is.
| cypezokyli wrote: |
so what exactly is it that makes an organisation a terrorist one ? |
For me an organisation that seeks to use violence fear murder intimidation and the threat of such (ie terror) against not just it's declared enemy but also against it's own people to achieve political goals is a terrorist organisation - to the degree it uses such tactics. To me this is true regardless and separate from how 'just' a given cause may be. To me the degree to which the ANC used such tactics is the degree to which the ANC was a terrorist orgnasiation - and so with EOKA and TMT. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Sorry, I don't have real player to open the file... |
The content is also there in wmv format btw. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
then why do you bother writing the above story? It does not prove anything.
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I gave you an example where your EOKA "heroes" and your "Republic of Cyprus" policemen killed civilians. The source of the information is an ordinary Cypriot, not a political person, so I'm pretty sure it's accurate. I'm also telling you that Sevgul Uludag had number of such interviews where the same sort of thing happened. If this doesn't prove anything, I don't know what would. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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hey Mete I'll say it again EOKA men killed 4 Turkish Cypriot civilians. I don't what that guy Sevgul Uludag wants to prove but if you want I can provide you a million source with positive stories about EOKA.
Cypez wrote:
| Quote: |
| So what exactly is it that makes an organisation a terrorist one ? |
According to the following definition by Erolz
| Quote: |
| For me an organisation that seeks to use violence fear murder intimidation and the threat of such (ie terror) against not just it's declared enemy but also against it's own people to achieve political goals is a terrorist organisation |
99.9% of all violent conflict is terrorism. Also according to that definition protestors for istance at the G8 meeting are terrorists also school students in Greece who protest against private schools.
ps. I just want people to realize that one has to think real hard before so easily and effortlessly labelling someone or some group as terrorist or terrorists. Nothing is black and white in Cyprus and there are 2 sides to every story. This should be our starting point for any discussion. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
hey Mete I'll say it again EOKA men killed 4 Turkish Cypriot civilians. I don't what that guy Sevgul Uludag wants to prove but if you want I can provide you a million source with positive stories about EOKA.
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I personally heard more than 4 Turkish Cypriots killed by EOKA but I'll let you live in your fantasy world with your heroes.
Sevgul Uludag wants to prove that both sides killed and got killed in the name of nationalism (and "heroism") which is very realistic and constructive for the future. You on the other hand still treat these murderers as heroes. (I know not all EOKA members were murderers and I know some of them indeed did not want to harm Turkish Cypriots but at the end of the day, Turkish Cypriots got harmed by EOKA and oh no, there weren't 4 of them!).
So let me hear some good stories about EOKA and how nicely they treated Turkish Cypriots..I'd like to expand my horizons. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| 99.9% of all violent conflict is terrorism. Also according to that definition protestors for istance at the G8 meeting are terrorists also school students in Greece who protest against private schools. |
I am not aware of G8 protesters shooting and killing the wives of Global capitalists or murdering their own citizens that do not agree with their cause. EOKA gunmen DID shoot British servicemen wives (in the back) and they DID murder members of their own community in the pursuit of their political goals. This is historical fact.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
ps. I just want people to realize that one has to think real hard before so easily and effortlessly labelling someone or some group as terrorist or terrorists. Nothing is black and white in Cyprus and there are 2 sides to every story. This should be our starting point for any discussion. |
Of course this is the case. It was your own black and white assertions however that EOKA were fighting for our freedom and we are obligated to respect them as heros. You also claimed in black and white terms 'There were no planned attacks on innocent civilians.' - which is not true and further you claimed in black and white terms that these eoka fighters were 'starving' because of British exploitation of cyprus - also far from the truth. So your advise that people should think hard before making black and white assertion would be advise you yourself should heed perhaps?
I understand that to you EOKA was a 'heroic' organisation of freedom fighters. However to me and the Turkish Cypriot community in general (as well as the British at the time) they were terrorist. You seem to think I have to agree with you perspective on this ? I do not. For me if you seek and plan to use terror as a means of achieving a political goal you are a terrorist. EOKA did such to a degree as did TMT (and ANC for that matter) and to that degree they were all terrorist organisations. That is pretty black and white to me. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Erolz wrote:
[quote]Of course this is the case. It was your own black and white assertions however that EOKA were fighting for our freedom and we are obligated to
| Quote: |
| respect them as heros. You also claimed in black and white terms 'There were no planned attacks on innocent civilians.' - which is not true and further you claimed in black and white terms that these eoka fighters were 'starving' because of British exploitation of cyprus - also far from the truth. So your advise that people should think hard before making black and white assertion would be advise you yourself should heed perhaps? |
You use offense for defense! I don't think I ever made in this forum absolut statements. I didn't say it is our oblication I said "I believe is our oblication..." the difference is that I clearly distinguish my opinion to the fact. I leave a window open to the possibility of my opinion being wrong. That is not black and white. Also those were not my words but Mete's words but replacing the word heroes with terrorist because to me it seems that it is black and white to call EOKA men heroes but it is not black and white to call them terrorists!
Your definition did not specify what type of violence, it didn't specify whether if it is killing the wive of the 'enemy' (from the back). According to your definition throwing a rock on a police car in a G8 protest is terrorism because you use violence to pursuit a political goal!
You are yet to prove a single terrorism attack of EOKA.
... Mete please read again what you wrote and stop contradicting yourself. You are the one who suggest dialogue, you call my opinion fantasy world without proving the opposite. Did I ever attack your opinion? To me it seems that the idea that EOKA men were murderers and terrorists have settled deep in your mind and you are not able to look out of the box.
ps. at last stop making an alternative point of view automaticaly wrong, when I use I believe, imo, to me, it seems, as far as I am concerned etc. For istance there is a difference between " bullshit, the world is not round" and "from what I understand the world in not round" |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Also Mete why would the British lie or underestimate the deaths on their own side? It is in their interest to show that more than 4 Turkish Cypriot civilians died and more than 16 British to prove that EOKA was indeed a terrorist group, but they didn't.
As far as I am concerned the killings of civilians were either accidents or fanatism demostrated rarely by individual members of EOKA. I don't think EOKA as an organisation approved such murders. |
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IrishCypriot
Villager
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Ireland
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reply to "depurple"
I accept your opinion and to be honest I dont want to get dragged into a debate with you but i have to reply!! Ill look forward to you reply but i am not going into a debate after this, I would prefer to have just a more general chat with some opinions.
I will answer your questions.
1 - yes, my father has a house in Northern Cyprus, My grandfather had a house in larnaca but that was lost when they moved north.
2 - Ireland has a war machine like britain 11 kilometers away!! and when it comes to turkey, please look up the history of the irish town "Drogheda", during the famine, when Irish people starved and the only bit of food that was grown here was take by the British back to britain. Ireland had a population of 8.5million before the famine. Britain had a population of 9million. Today there are 4.5million in Ireland and 60million in Britian. Anyway, the only people to help the irish during this time was the Ottoman Empire when they sent ships of food to Drogheda which now has the half moon crescent and star symble as the towns emblem due to the help received. In saying all of the above, I will probably agree with you on this, I would prefer to be under British rule than turkish rule, Indonesia rule or greek rule for that matter.
Oh and one other thing, just incase you assume it, I am not pro turkish, far from it actually. I see it as an agressive country, but in that, no different from Britain. When Irish people where be persecuted in the north of ireland in the 1960's, what did the british do to help, they sent the army in to stop us from protecting ourselves. They killed us, put us in jail, the placed curfews on us, the made us second class citizens....... Sound like a glorious peaceful empire to you?
As for Cyprus, yes, Britain was an insurance policy not just against turkey, but against greece too. Greece took advantange and then so did the turks... the only difference was turkey didnt want to unify the island or any part of it to turkey, they wanted to create a turkish state in cyprus, self governing and aligned to Turkey but the only problem to that was that it has never been recognised. Where Northern Ireland differs to the cyprus conflict is that in northern Ireland we have settlers who came from britain who make up the majority, albeit tiny but a ratio of about 55/45 and in fairness to the Irish, we have accepted this and when the people of northern democratically vote to be apart of ireland once again then we will have a unified ireland here. Yeah, there are idiots who don't accept that and will use terrorism but they are such a minority now that its not even worth mentioning them!!. In cyprus you have two different poeple who have been there since the start of time, I dont care if one side claims they were there before the other. Thats a debate that could go on for years, in Northern Ireland its a very recent history. To conclude on this, I think it is only fair that the Turkish Cypriots had every right not to be apart of a union with greece and whatever was required to allow a people have that right should have been explored. It wasnt explored and through the ignorance of Britain, Greece, Turkey unfortunately exploited that.
Ok if you want to comment on the above, please do. Have you always lived in Australia or did you ever live in Cyprus. I have always lived in Ireland. My father has cousins who moved from cyprus to australia but I have no idea to what part.
I hope you see i am not biased on Cyprus, I like to see myself as Cypriot. Not Turkish or Greek, considering that My family originate from both side of the border and the sadest thing for me was when I went to visitn my aunt in London, she was living across the road from a greek cypriot couple (very elderly) and they were friends, they had bbq's together, drinks and where actually quite good friends. This was about 12years ago and when I visited Cyprus all throughout the years, nothing but baricades, military and un to divide the people. |
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