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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
There are obviously many mistakes in the past but imo whatever happened Turkey was going to invade and divide the island eventually because that is what they wanted and that is also what ritish wanted so Cypriots were powerless in preventing it.
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Even if you're right (that Turkey would invade anyway), your side helped Turkey a lot by making huge mistakes to create the environment for Turkey to come to Cyprus and I don't see much different today in terms of not giving excuses for Turkey to stay in Cyprus. |
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Get Real!
Warnings : 3
Senior Villager
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 325
Location: Nicosia
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Mete...
| Quote: |
| I don't see much different today in terms of not giving excuses for Turkey to stay in Cyprus. |
So what do you suggest the Republic of Cyprus should do to change this? |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Get Real wrote: |
So what do you suggest the Republic of Cyprus should do to change this?
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It might be too late now but in a nutshell Greek Cypriots could/can make Turkish Cypriots feel welcomed in the Republic of Cyprus and not act like Republic of Cyprus is a Greek Cypriot republic. There were/are a lot of ways of achieving this.
When 80.000 Turkish Cypriots were demonstrating against Denktash and for Annan plan back in 2002-2003, Republic of Cyprus could have seized the opportunity to invite those Turkish Cypriots back in the Republic of Cyprus and ask them to consider being part of Republic of Cyprus again. But that didn't happen.
When borders were first opened, the Republic of Cyprus could have been more positive about it. They could have used that momentum to gain the trust of Turkish Cypriots by not merely giving passports and IDs (which they have to do anyway) but by inviting Turkish Cypriots again to consider joining to the Republic of Cyprus, be active in the Republic of Cyprus. This didn't happen either. Instead Republic of Cyprus discouraged Greek Cypriots to cross to the north, they tried to arrest Turkish Cypriots who used Greek Cypriot owned property in the north, etc. etc.
Even recently, 78 Turkish Cypriots applied to the Republic of Cyprus asking for representation in the Republic of Cyprus but they had been denied with the reason that they live in the north. Ledra Street is still closed, this time mainly because of the Greek Cypriot side.
From outside, it looks like Greek Cypriots feel no obligation or desire to share Republic of Cyprus with Turkish Cypriots, let alone encourage Turkish Cypriots to return back to the Republic of Cyprus. It looks like they're almost happy that they get to run Republic of Cyprus without Turkish Cypriot presence and enjoy the full benefits of an internationally recognized state.
On top of all this, hardly anyone in the Greek Cypriot politics openly talks about Turkish Cypriots not being a mere minority but rather one of the two founding communities of the Republic of Cyprus. All we hear about is return of all refugees, removal of all Turkish troops and removal of all settlers. It feels like Greek Cypriots don't really care about what Turkish Cypriot fears and desires are and they only try to find a solution because they want to get back what they lost (land).
All these and many other that I don't have time to list add up as insecurity and mistrust against Greek Cypriots within the Turkish Cypriot community and that's why Turkish Cypriots get more and more attached to the Turkish army and a 2 state solution. They feel like they don't have a partner for a solution in the south and the Republic of Cyprus is doing nothing to reverse the worsening climate on the island. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 925
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| Quote: |
| Even if you're right (that Turkey would invade anyway), your side helped Turkey a lot by making huge mistakes to create the environment for Turkey to come to Cyprus and I don't see much different today in terms of not giving excuses for Turkey to stay in Cyprus. |
Yes, we created a bad environment and somehow we established the prologue to the tradegy but I don't think todat we are like that. I know there are many confidence building meassures that we may consider, but I don't think Turkish Cypriots are treated so badly by Republic of Cyprus. If yes, what improvements would you like to see? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Even if you're right (that Turkey would invade anyway), your side helped Turkey a lot by making huge mistakes to create the environment for Turkey to come to Cyprus and I don't see much different today in terms of not giving excuses for Turkey to stay in Cyprus. |
Yes, we created a bad environment and somehow we established the prologue to the tradegy but I don't think todat we are like that. I know there are many confidence building meassures that we may consider, but I don't think Turkish Cypriots are treated so badly by Republic of Cyprus. If yes, what improvements would you like to see? |
What I would like to see you personally do is admit that the implementation of something like enosis in cyprus , ie something that is a desire of only the Greek Cypriot community, represents an imposition of Greek Cypriot will on Turkish Cypriot will in their shared homeland. That would be a start. If you were able to concede this simple truth then we could move onto the rights and wrongs of such an imposition and how or even if it should be dealt with in a untied cyprus. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| erolz wrote: |
If you were able to concede this simple truth then we could move onto the rights and wrongs of such an imposition and how or even if it should be dealt with in a untied cyprus.
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Exactly my point, Erol. But instead we see Greek Cypriots defending something (Enosis) that started all this drama called Cyprus problem even today and that's what kills me the most. |
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Evagoras
Senior Villager
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 118
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| Mete wrote: |
| erolz wrote: |
If you were able to concede this simple truth then we could move onto the rights and wrongs of such an imposition and how or even if it should be dealt with in a untied cyprus.
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Exactly my point, Erol. But instead we see Greek Cypriots defending something (Enosis) that started all this drama called Cyprus problem even today and that's what kills me the most. |
maybe becaude we believe enosis it was cypriots self determanion rigt. do you want to be disonest and lie to tou?and even if we believed it was not our right it is difficult to admit it because your side will use it and say see its all your fault and since it is your fault the best solution you can demand is annan plan. today majority of cypriots want indipendence and today Republic of Cyprus is memper of eu and respect human rights but you insist to bring the enosis issue and 63-64 events in every occasion .imo you just do that for the reason i wrote above. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Mete wrote: |
| erolz wrote: |
If you were able to concede this simple truth then we could move onto the rights and wrongs of such an imposition and how or even if it should be dealt with in a untied cyprus.
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Exactly my point, Erol. But instead we see Greek Cypriots defending something (Enosis) that started all this drama called Cyprus problem even today and that's what kills me the most. |
You argued in another post (in this thread) that you do not wish to see things in black and white, and that one can successfully argue both ways when dealing with such issues. Yet, you now prove that you indeed see things in black and white, and you join Erol in his mission to prove (I should say almost impose) to the Greek Cypriots that enosis, even in the 50’s and during the British colonial times, was an immoral and illegitimate pursue on their (Greek Cypriot's) behalf. It is not the Greek Cypriots in this forum (with perhaps one exception) that claim that today Enosis should still be on the agenda, as an irredentist self-determination pursue! In fact, the vast majority of Greek Cypriots today do not want to hear about such a possibility, since we got used to the status of an independed state, despite the Turkish occupation of the north 1/3 of our country. It is your friend Erol that brings up this issue once in a while, and writes volumes upon volumes upon volumes of warped theories in the forum, in order to “prove” to us Greek Cypriots that the pursue of Enosis as an expression of self-determination was a totally unethical and illegitimate one, regardless of the fact that at a time (50’s) it was embraced by the vast majority of the people of this country. I said many times that from a political stand point, the goal of enosis, and the means implemented towards its achievement, were a mistake, a political one, and I am 100% sure about it, however, I am as sure and certain that it was not an illegitimate or an immoral peruse, as Erol tries to prove to us so relentlessly. It was not an immoral one, simply because (a) the Greek Cypriot community constituted the overwhelming majority of the people of this country and it has a way much longer historical presence in this country, no matter how much you despise hearing this reality, and (b) neither Greece nor the Greek Cypriot community meant or intented any harm towards the Turkish Cypriots, be it in relation to their collective cultural rights, or towards their individual human and /or political rights!
I gave you a couple of examples which in anyone’s view –anyone that has some common sense, they make Erol’s theory and approach to hold very little to almost no water at all. They are here in this forum and in this thread. You read them and then admitted (to your credit) that indeed one can argue both ways successfully. Yet, you now come up and say that no, there is only one way one can argue, that of regarding and branding the Enosis objective an immoral assumption, even during the 50’s when Cyprus had not yet gained its independence, and before the 1960 “agreements” which granted the Turkish Cypriot community a separate and a parallel saying in this kind of affairs. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Kifeas wrote: |
Yet, you now come up and say that no, there is only one way one can argue,
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I never said this. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| .... and you join Erol in his mission to prove (I should say almost impose) to the Greek Cypriots that enosis, even in the 50’s and during the British colonial times, was an immoral and illegitimate pursue on their (Greek Cypriot's) behalf. |
I have never said the pursuit of enosis by the Greek Cypriot community before 1960 was immoral or illegitimate, let alone try to prove this. Not in this thread or in any other.
What I have said is that had enosis been achieved it would have represented an imposition of Greek Cypriot will on Turkish Cypriot in their shared homeland.
I have said that accepting this simple and obvious reality is an essential prerequisite to dealing with the issue of how we agree to reunite Cyprus. Just denying it does not allow us to deal with it - which is fine if you are Greek Cypriot but not if you are Turkish Cypriot. |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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OK, so the pursuit of enosis was the deomcratic and moral right of the Greek Cypriot community, but it was a stupid choice.
Can we move on now? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| pg wrote: |
OK, so the pursuit of enosis was the deomcratic and moral right of the Greek Cypriot community, but it was a stupid choice.
Can we move on now? |
Sorry PG but this still misses the essential point as far as I am concerned. What I would like Greek Cypriot to be able to accept and understand is that the achievement of enosis would have represented and required the imposition of Greek Cypriot will on the Turkish Cypriot community against theirs and therefore the suppression of Turkish Cypriot communal will in our shared homeland.
I want this acceptance exactly so we CAN move on. Move on to the issues that concern the Turkish Cypriot community - rather than just constantly being told they are 'non issues' made up to purse other objectives and thus can be / should be ignored entirely. |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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When ever a "one person one vote" system is used it always mean a decision is "imposed against the will" of those that did not agree. When such decisions cause an irreversible change then it is commonly accepted that the vote needs a bit more than 50% of the votes - meaning a bit more than the "one person one vote" principle needs to be applied.
At the same time, how do you erolz judge if an enough percentage of the Greek Cypriot community "accept and understand" the faults of the past? That calls for a call of judgement. What I wonder is when you will decide it is good enough for you to move on. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| .... and you join Erol in his mission to prove (I should say almost impose) to the Greek Cypriots that enosis, even in the 50’s and during the British colonial times, was an immoral and illegitimate pursue on their (Greek Cypriot's) behalf. |
I have never said the pursuit of enosis by the Greek Cypriot community before 1960 was immoral or illegitimate, let alone try to prove this. Not in this thread or in any other.
What I have said is that had enosis been achieved it would have represented an imposition of Greek Cypriot will on Turkish Cypriot in their shared homeland.
I have said that accepting this simple and obvious reality is an essential prerequisite to dealing with the issue of how we agree to reunite Cyprus. Just denying it does not allow us to deal with it - which is fine if you are Greek Cypriot but not if you are Turkish Cypriot. |
You make no sense my friend!
It is the use of the word imposition, if you so like, that implies that you regard it as unethical and illegitimate pursue, and I have no doubt about it. By using the word imposition, you are trying to direct your readers to assume that it was something unconventional, undemocratic and unethical, simply because by its nature the word imposition carries a negative connotation. In such a case, you should also regard the will of the majority of the people in a country, not to have a conservative government but instead a socialist one, as an imposition of those wishing one thing onto those wishing another, in their shared homeland. Yet, I have never heard the use of the word imposition to be use by the conservatives in the UK, for example, when they lost elections in favor of the labors, or vise versa. I never thought of democracy to be all about imposition of a majority over a minority, in its shared homeland; but instead I only hear about the obligation of the minority to respect the will of the majority (and not to regard it as an imposition,) as well as the obligation of the majority to allow the minority to freely express its views and opinion, and not to assume the right to violate its whatever conventional rights. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| pg wrote: |
OK, so the pursuit of enosis was the deomcratic and moral right of the Greek Cypriot community, but it was a stupid choice.
Can we move on now? |
Sorry PG but this still misses the essential point as far as I am concerned. What I would like Greek Cypriot to be able to accept and understand is that the achievement of enosis would have represented and required the imposition of Greek Cypriot will on the Turkish Cypriot community against theirs and therefore the suppression of Turkish Cypriot communal will in our shared homeland.
I want this acceptance exactly so we CAN move on. Move on to the issues that concern the Turkish Cypriot community - rather than just constantly being told they are 'non issues' made up to purse other objectives and thus can be / should be ignored entirely. |
The assumption that in the 50's, the Turkish Cypriot community rightfully constituted a separate people-entity, and more so an equal one, from /to that of the Greek Cypriot community -instead of both been integrated parts of the same Cypriot people; was not a conventional assumption. The right of the Turkish Cypriot community to have a “separate and equal” saying to that of the “separate and equal” Greek Cypriot community, as two separate "people-entities," was not a conventional right in the fifties, neither it was /is a conventional right in most pars of the world, including your other homeland, the UK. Neither such a right is recognized in Turkey to any minority ethnic group, in their shared homeland.
In fact, not even under the 1960 “agreements” the two communities were recognized as two separate people-entities (with clearly separate and parallel self-determination rights, as two separate peoples in an international law sense,) but only as ethnic communities that constitute parts of the one and only one Cypriot people. The 1960 “agreements” clearly speak about the people of Cyprus as one people, and about the Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot communities as parts of this one people. This is so at least according to the letter of these “agreements,” and regardless of the fact that the members of the two communities exercised their political rights through separate channels. |
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