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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
So, aside from all the relevant and emotive arguments about return of land, property etc., the only real solution in Cyprus is for two states to exist, both running their own affairs and rely on the economic, infrastructural and social interdependence that a normal state of affairs existing between the two would generate to bind the two sides of the island together. The only part that education has to play is to teach people not to hate anymore. But the more that politicians, educators and other top-level officials try to force people together, the more they will dissent.
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I think it is really a matter of what we call it. The changes I suggested above to the AP5 could be described as a BBF but more palatable to the Greek Cypriot side - a more European solution. However, it can also be described as a two state solution where the states are organized in a union according to EU model (with only two states).
In both cases the trick is to present it as acceptable enough to make people take the step away from the comfort of status quo. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 845
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Mete wrote:
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| Ok, let's try this. You have 100 people in a room. 82 people in that group want one thing (say A). 18 people want another thing (say B). There's a middle ground where all 100 people can live with (say C) but it is not ideal both for groups. What's the best solution according to you? |
Ok, If method A was the desire of 82%, method B 18%, then method C cannot be 100%, that equals to 200%. Not so many wanted method C, method C was imposed, that is the difference.
Cypezokyli wrote:
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| you realise that they oppose it but you dont make an effort to realise why. |
why? According to their official position held at the time, because they wanted Cyprus to be return to the authentic owners, Turkey! As if Cyprus is a piece of land and the people living there irrelevant. Tell me why, anyway ordinary people did not oppose Enosis. As for Crete, Turkey was occupying Crete, not Britain and the Cretans liberated Crete from Turkey, not Britain (the circumstances were different). As I said various times, my idea of Enosis is where all people have their human rights respected.
Cypezokyli wrote:
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| let as assume that it was feasible, and the Turkish Cypriots wouldnt have any problem etc.... what i really cannot get is , was so important about enosis ? honestly in 2007 , what do you think that enosis would give to us ? |
I didn't say enosis is important, I said having to chose from the options partition, independence, Cyprus being part of Turkey, Cyprus being part of Greece or Cyprus being a British colony... to me clearly Cyprus being part of Greece is the fairest and the best for the people living there... why?
Just imagine Cyprus in all the above situations and calculate the positives and negatives, then you tell me why?
After all Cyprus is culturally Greek territory despite the fact that some friend of ours conveniently forget it. Also I believe in Enosis as the democratic demand of the people and a type of Enosis that will respect the human rights of everyone in the island.
Why don't you ask the same question to those who believe partition is the fairest solution, those who believe Anan Plan is the fairest solution or those who support the 60s constitution. What I am not allowed to have an opinion |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| What I am not allowed to have an opinion |
ofcource you are allowed to have an opinion 
never claimed otherwise.
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| Just imagine Cyprus in all the above situations and calculate the positives and negatives, then you tell me why? |
this is actually precisely what i am doing. leaving aside the cyppro , and the impossibility of enosis and the problems that target brought us , i really dont see the benefit of being part of greece.
our state due to the small size and some colonial traditions , functions way more efficient than the greek state (better economy, less corruption higher standard of living etc) . being part of the greece will just make as a periphery. i mean in pure material terms , there is absolutely no reason to unite with greece.
with this i dont want to present an anti-greek feeling. almost all of my music is greek , and i do enjoy hanging around with greeks... and even if one considers the greeks as our brothers , i also dont see a problem with it. but that has nothing to do with sharing the same state.
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| Why don't you ask the same question to those who believe partition is the fairest solution, those who believe Anan Plan is the fairest solution or those who support the 60s constitution. |
i dont believe in "fair" solutions.
after observing a number of majority - minority conflicts around the world i believe to the following rule of thumb: if the majority wants to avoid war or loose land it has to give some extra rights to the minority and to avoid oppresing them.
the extra rights can be cultural rights , regional autonomy or power sharing systems. how much rights a minority ends up getting usually depends on realpolitik factors (its size, its power , the history of the conflict etc etc )
so answering your question . i dont delieve in fair solutions , i believe in real solutions and above all in peaceful ones.
back then i thought the AP was bad and i was rather to the NO side. the more the time goes by i dont believe that we are willing or able to get a better solution. now , seeing what happened in the last three years i believe we are closer to partition than to an improved AP... at the end of the day it is only my personal prediction , putting all the variables i see around me......and i do hope i am wrong with this prediction. |
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Khan
Deputy
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 1092
Location: London
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| because they wanted Cyprus to be return to the authentic owners, Turkey! As if Cyprus is a piece of land and the people living there irrelevant |
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| After all Cyprus is culturally Greek territory |
Do you see the inconsistency in these two statements? |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 845
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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No... you quote only part of what I wrote, I didn't write that the only reason that Cyprus should be part of Greece is because it is historically Greek. I wouldn't dare say Constantinople should be return to Greece because it was historically Greek... what about the millions of people living there!
Cypezokyli wrote:
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this is actually precisely what i am doing. leaving aside the cyppro , and the impossibility of enosis and the problems that target brought us , i really dont see the benefit of being part of greece.
our state due to the small size and some colonial traditions , functions way more efficient than the greek state (better economy, less corruption higher standard of living etc) . being part of the greece will just make as a periphery. i mean in pure material terms , there is absolutely no reason to unite with greece. |
Yes, let's forget about the problem and its complexities and imagine a purely liberated society that had to chose one of the options I've mentioned.
On economic terms Cyprus and Greece are extremely similar, especially after the Olympics. It is true that smaller states are governed more efficient but at the same time often they are more unstable.
Lets assume that Cyprus was far more advanced economically than Greece. You ignore that Cyprus due to its size and strategic position benefits being part of a larger country. Also you ignore that Cyprus economy relies on Tourism and if something goes wrong the only country that could help us is Greece, if we turn our backs to Greece then it will be tought for Cyprus.
I think the issue of most people with Enosis and especially for Turkish Cypriots is that the view Enosis as a pure nationalistic desire of Greek Cypriots. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| Quote: |
| It is true that smaller states are governed more efficient but at the same time often they are more unstable. |
i dont know if there is a study supporting the above claim. no offence, but just bc you say it , it doesnt mean that it is true.
at the same time i dont want to claim that you are wrong without providing any evidence.
so if you have any evidence that size matters (  ) and brings stability, why dont you show it to us
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| Also you ignore that Cyprus economy relies on Tourism and if something goes wrong the only country that could help us is Greece, if we turn our backs to Greece then it will be tought for Cyprus. |
we dont rely on tourism as much as before.
besides greece relies on tourism as much as we do, so i really cannot see the benefit .
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if we turn our backs to Greece then it will be tought for Cyprus. |
i never said that we should turn our backs to greece.
see, this is often the problem in cyprus. just bc i dont want union with the greek state that means i want to turn my back on greece. i never claimed that.
ON THE CONTRARY. i do believe that it is in our benefit to have normalised relations to all our (sea) neighbours , especially the ones we have close ties with i.e. greece and turkey.
lastly , you forget that both cyprus and greece are part of the EU. a EU which might not be so politically coherent , but it is already pretty economically coherent.
in short , regarding the economy and improved economic relations (which i am always in favor) i really dont see why a two state structure is worse.
so , why not keep our small efficient state , and enjoy economic cooperation in the context of the EU ? |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
Lets assume that Cyprus was far more advanced economically than Greece. You ignore that Cyprus due to its size and strategic position benefits being part of a larger country. Also you ignore that Cyprus economy relies on Tourism and if something goes wrong the only country that could help us is Greece, if we turn our backs to Greece then it will be tought for Cyprus.
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If Cyprus was part of Greece our economy would be like that of Crete - down the drain.
It is not a matter of size, or who is more advanced, it is a matter of having a laws, regulation and administration that suits our local needs. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 845
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Cypezokyli wrote:
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i dont know if there is a study supporting the above claim. no offence, but just bc you say it , it doesnt mean that it is true.
at the same time i dont want to claim that you are wrong without providing any evidence.
so if you have any evidence that size matters ( ) and brings stability, why dont you show it to us |
OK I am not going to write an academic report to prove a point supporting it with documentation etc. 1. Smaller states are governed more efficient it is widely recognised and that is why larger coutries give emphasis in building strong local governments within states. As for unstable, think about it why did Britain follow the strategy 'divide and rule'? I am not claiming to be right but I made an observation.
Cypez wrote:
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lastly , you forget that both cyprus and greece are part of the EU. a EU which might not be so politically coherent , but it is already pretty economically coherent.
in short , regarding the economy and improved economic relations (which i am always in favor) i really dont see why a two state structure is worse. |
EU does not function as a country and individual countries within EU put their own benefits first to the EU community. Maybe in 50 years time.
Cypez wrote:
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| so , why not keep our small efficient state , and enjoy economic cooperation in the context of the EU ? |
Cos a small efficient state is the perfect target of the power hungry big states.
pg wrote:
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If Cyprus was part of Greece our economy would be like that of Crete - down the drain.
It is not a matter of size, or who is more advanced, it is a matter of having a laws, regulation and administration that suits our local needs. |
Crete is fine, it is not economically as advanced but they don't have the problems we do.
Also you see, you are concerns are only in terms of economy and benefits.
The difference between Greece and other countries is that Greece is the only country in the world that behaves towards Cyprus as a motherland, it is the only country willing to help Cyprus without expecting return favour. |
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Khan
Deputy
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 1092
Location: London
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| Quote: |
| No... you quote only part of what I wrote, I didn't write that the only reason that Cyprus should be part of Greece is because it is historically Greek. I wouldn't dare say Constantinople should be return to Greece because it was historically Greek... what about the millions of people living there! |
The point I was making was that on the one hand you criticise those Turkish Cypriots who supported Taksim for considering the people on the island irrelevant. i.e. for disregarding the Greek Cypriot presence
On the other, you justify enosis by stating the island is "culturally Greek", thereby disregarding 20% of the population who is culturally Turkish.
So what is the difference in that you disagree with the first but support the second? |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| Quote: |
| As for unstable, think about it why did Britain follow the strategy 'divide and rule'? I am not claiming to be right but I made an observation. |
i believe the divide and rule policy has been greatly exagurated.
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| Cos a small efficient state is the perfect target of the power hungry big states. |
can you give me an example of such states ?
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| The difference between Greece and other countries is that Greece is the only country in the world that behaves towards Cyprus as a motherland, it is the only country willing to help Cyprus without expecting return favour. |
this is exactly how the Turkish Cypriots feel about turkey. 
2 things.
the first. greece helps Greek Cypriots not all cypriots. there is no doubt that without the help of greece we would never manage to get into the EU. without greece our position would have been much worse.... but "our" in this case refers only to Greek Cypriots.
even further if i assume that you talk not only about the economy but also about security , then the above becomes even more extreme (and clear at the same time). union with greece will make us ofcource feel safer against turkey....BUT this doesnt hold for Turkish Cypriots.
the second. no doubt that greece supports us , but in the last years (and especially after they managed to put as in the EU ) there is a tendency from the greek goverments, to value their relations with turkey more than in the past. greece is not giving us a blank check anymore... and to be honest i cannot blame them.
i dont want to exagurate the above , but for sure there is a tendency of greece protecting her own interests. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 845
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| Quote: |
| The point I was making was that on the one hand you criticise those Turkish Cypriots who supported Taksim for considering the people on the island irrelevant. i.e. for disregarding the Greek Cypriot presence. |
I didn't mentioned Taksim, I mentioned that Turkey claim the whole of Cyprus and and number of Turkish Cypriots were also in favour of that. At the first and second national Turkish conference Turkey and Turkish.
Cypriots claimed that "Cyprus should return to its authentic owners."
I didn't justify Enosis solely in terms of "culturally..."
Ok I was being subjective, now let me try again.
2 Facts
Cyprus was a terittory,
In that territory there are people living.
Most probable facts:
Hypothetically we live in the year 1500
In that territory the extreme majority of the people were Greeks and there were also a number of Venecians, yes.
Greeks lived in the land for approximately 3000 years and Venetians for 10 years.
Cyprus is governed by the Venetians.
Now who determines who should govern the land?
Ok now we live the year 1800
In that territory the majority of the people were Greeks and there were also a number of Turks.
Greeks lived in the land for approximately 3200 years and Turks for 130 years.
Cyrpsu is governed by the Ottomans.
Now who determines who should govern the land in this period?
1900
It happened to be that 78% were Greeks and 18% Turkish and 4% others, yes?
In this period Cyprus is governed by the British.
Again the question, who determines who should govern the island
Year 2007... still the same question
Who determines the boundaries of a state?
What are the criteria to determine an independent state?
How far back in history do we look?
I am not quite sure how to answer those questions but I think and judge and I believe that Cyprus at least up to the 1950s should of been Greek, that is my opinion.
Well now the circumstances are a bit different, it depends of what people want (I think). |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 845
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Cypez wrote:
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| can you give me an example of such states ? |
Cyprus ...it is one of the many territories in the world that was split from its motherland in order for the big countries to take advantage of them, using bases, using their resources etc. I don't even know why I answer this question!
Cypez wrote:
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| this is exactly how the Turkish Cypriots feel about turkey. |
I didn't say towards Greek Cypriots, I said towards Cyprus.
If Turkey cared about Turkish Cypriots they wouldn't bring settlers they wouldn't make the North one of the most militirised areas in the world. Turkey did not go to Cyprus for the Turkish Cypriots, the went for the own interests that is the difference.
Cypez wrote:
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| even further if i assume that you talk not only about the economy but also about security , then the above becomes even more extreme (and clear at the same time). union with greece will make us ofcource feel safer against turkey....BUT this doesnt hold for Turkish Cypriots. |
It is not about being safer from Turkey, it is about foreign countries such as Turkey, Britain and US not being able to take advantage of the position and the resources of Cyprus as easily as they would be in a situation where Cyprus is part of a larger country, a country that respects all the locals. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| Quote: |
| Who determines the boundaries of a state? |
war... or colonization
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| What are the criteria to determine an independent state? |
my criterion is , being a member of the UN .
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| How far back in history do we look? |
everyone chooses a point in time that suits him. thats why often sociologists will tell you that the way history is constructed is determined by the future targets of those who construct it.
we cannot change the world map, and create the world how it was 100 , 500 or 1000 years ago.
this is one of the reasons why time is running against us |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1677
Location: Canada
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What is agreed upon is bi-zonal and bi-communal. This does not mean two parts or two mutually exclusive governing authorities.
Secondly, we gained a form of autonamy because the world saw the subjugation of Cypriots as an abberation, contrary to the rights of individuals, in their pursuits as Human Beings. The solution which was agreed upon may have had its flaws but this is the premise which has preoccupied the UN for so long.
Thirdly, as Human Beings, and as the dwellers of this island, we have a responsibility to the rest of the world to find a solution to our problem which promotes the betterment of conditions for not just ourselves but toward all people.
We do not have the luxury of acting selfishly, or for the benefit of one group against the other because this thinking only promotes the intolerance which has caused so much suffering, here and in other places around the globe in conflict.
We need to reconsider the enterprise of governing ourselves so that it functions without the stigma of ethnicity. As a modern state moving forward, especially in the European context, we are neither turcophomes or grecophones first. Rather, we are people, all the same, with the same desires, having the same capacity to provide toward each other goodwill.
Greek Cypriots have no right to their dominion over the Republic of Cyprus. They have, on the other hand as much right to self determination as their brethren, the Turkish Cypriot community.
The Turkish Army occupies the land, and there is no reason to disallow hundreds of thousands displaced by this imbroglio their dignity or their Basic Human Rights. Greek Cypriots must reciprocate for the same reasons, the indignity wrought upon the displaced ten years earlier.
Enclave is not a dirty word. It is the core to a solution made in Cyprus if the two zones have many parts and if Cypriots can identify with two of three governments for their sovereignty as Cypriots and as members of one of two ethnicities.
Real is a solution which provides amicable relations between the two national bodies which are so important to our sustinance while we remain united as people for the freedom which is the desire of each and every soul. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 845
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| Quote: |
Quote:
Who determines the boundaries of a state?
war... or colonization
Quote:
What are the criteria to determine an independent state?
my criterion is , being a member of the UN .
Quote:
How far back in history do we look?
everyone chooses a point in time that suits him. thats why often sociologists will tell you that the way history is constructed is determined by the future targets of those who construct it. |
Unfortunately that's what happens in reality but what is an objective way to determine to whom a territory belongs.
RW wrote:
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| We do not have the luxury of acting selfishly, or for the benefit of one group against the other because this thinking only promotes the intolerance which has caused so much suffering, here and in other places around the globe in conflict. |
Ok true.
RW wrote:
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| We need to reconsider the enterprise of governing ourselves so that it functions without the stigma of ethnicity. As a modern state moving forward, especially in the European context, we are neither turcophomes or grecophones first. |
Why Turcophones and Grecophones and not Turks and Greeks? ...as if language is the only connection to Greece and Turkey!
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| Rather, we are people, all the same, with the same desires, having the same capacity to provide toward each other goodwill. |
Good and at the same time we should respect each others culture and ethnic background.
RW wrote:
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| Real is a solution which provides amicable relations between the two national bodies which are so important to our sustinance while we remain united as people for the freedom which is the desire of each and every soul. |
Each and every person I think it is difficult but a real solution is the one that reflects the will of the general public, that respects the human rights and the liberties of the people and of communities. |
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