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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 819
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Erolz wrote:
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| For calls for taksim to have been a reaction to calls for enosis , taksim must have occured after calls for enosis. If calls for taksim predated those for enosis then clearly taksim could not possibly have been a reaction to enosis. |
If the desire of enosis came approximately a century before taksim, how can paople claim that taksim was a direct reaction to enosis!
Erolz wrote:
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stavrizatz wrote:
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| So I am not saying majority rules and nothing else, and I don't think I ever said that. |
Well it sounds that way to me. When you say to me
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| If Cyprus was united with Greece due to its majority Greek population then it was not imposing to the Turkish Cypriots something that they did not desire but a democratic resolvement of the issue. |
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You have the article about self-determination, read it when you have time and then come back and argue. There are many situations where democracy is not fair such as the example you gave with the women; for this reason in all democratic systems there are guidelines and restrictions so as that the majority will not dominate and suppress other minorities. That is the same in most democratic systems in the wolrd. Anyway we went a bit out of subject.
My point is, self-determination is a human right for territories to dicide their future and this right is democratic in nature. Whether the government of a unitary state will be purely demogratic or federal democratic is a deferent story. |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1641
Location: Canada
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| ...bi-communal; being bi-zonal, with many parts. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| If the desire of enosis came approximately a century before taksim, how can paople claim that taksim was a direct reaction to enosis! |
The growth of desire for taksim within the Turkish Cypriot community grew as the potential of enosis being achieved and imposed on the Turkish Cypriot community against their will increased. Taksim was a reaction to the enosis being achieved. When enosis was nothing but a distant pipe dream the need to react to it did not need to exist. As it time went on and it appeared that enosis may be achievable that when Taksim grem as a reaction to this.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| There are many situations where democracy is not fair such as the example you gave with the women; for this reason in all democratic systems there are guidelines and restrictions so as that the majority will not dominate and suppress other minorities. That is the same in most democratic systems in the wolrd. Anyway we went a bit out of subject. |
So what protections do you invisage in your unitary democratic state that would protect the Turkish Cypriot community from having something like enosis, a purely Greek Cypriot desire, imposed on them against their will in their own (shared) homeland ? Apparently none as far as I can tell. All I you seem to be telling me is that democracy can be unfair but if I express any fear of the Turkish Cypriot community become victim to this kind of unfairness you tell me that I am actually just pretending to have this concern for some ulterior motive.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
My point is, self-determination is a human right for territories to dicide their future and this right is democratic in nature. Whether the government of a unitary state will be purely demogratic or federal democratic is a deferent story. |
Yes people have a right to self determination. They also have many other rights. However these things are not unlimited and do not grant the right of one group to deny another its right in order to exercise their own.
I have done my best to explain what my concerns and fears are , why I have them and why the idea that the kind of solutions I believe are a fair, democratic and a necessary stage in any potential future development of a true unitary Cypriot nation. It seems that my best efforts have failed and that you believe that my expressed desire and need for some degree of political equality for the Turkish Cypriot community in a unified Cyprus are actually nothing to do with my expressed reasons but simply because I really want something that I know to be unjust, unfair , unnecessary in order to accrue some kind of gain for my community at the expense of the Greek Cypriot community in Cyprus. This is just not the case and it is hard to see how we can find a future that addresses my concerns and needs along with yours if you simply can not or will not understand my concerns and why I have them but instead simply attribute them to some ulterior motive  |
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100%cypriot
Warnings : 4
Ministerial
Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 2144
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
There are a million proposed solutions for the Cyprus problem; so which one is the fairest in your opinion???
The majority of these proposed models for a solution were manufactured overseas. The fact that the Cypriots have not greatly been involved with finding a solution is keeping with the past history where the affairs of Cyprus had for centuries been settled by foreigners over the heads of the people.
Perhaps the most important referendum that Cypriots should sign is first what Cypriots really want and whether if we are satisfied with the status quo.
-Is there a necessity for a solution?
-A solution to what?
–Obviously a type of problem!
-And the problem is?
-Well here is the problem, different people have different views on what the problem is! I say “ the Cyprus problem is that of Turkish invasion and occupation”, another sais “ the Cyprus problem is that Greek Cypriots don’t want to share the government with Turkish Cypriots so it was necessary for Turkey to step in” another might say “ well there was a problem, now fuck the problem once we live in peace and we are probably better off as we are”
Really tell me if solution is not what people want then the fairest solution to the Cyprus problem is ....? |
There is no such thing as a FAIR solution ! And fair for WHO The T/C's or the G/C's ? |
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Get Real!
Warnings : 3
Senior Villager
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 322
Location: Nicosia
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Erolz...
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| ...This is just not the case and it is hard to see how we can find a future that addresses my concerns and needs along with yours if you simply can not or will not understand my concerns and why I have them but instead simply attribute them to some ulterior motive |
Your "concerns" are no longer a valid excuse to want to throw Cyprus back to 1960-like arrangements that evidently didn't work.
Today, Cyprus is a very different animal altogether with the EU meticulously dictating every aspect of life and imposing severe fines when standards are not even met in time.
Any notion that Turkish Cypriots may lose out in any way or form is nothing but propaganda material used by those who directly or indirectly push for a separate "state".
There comes a time when we need to be honest with ourselves and that time has now come for the Turkish Cypriots... yourself included Erolz. |
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100%cypriot
Warnings : 4
Ministerial
Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 2144
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| Get Real! wrote: |
Erolz...
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| ...This is just not the case and it is hard to see how we can find a future that addresses my concerns and needs along with yours if you simply can not or will not understand my concerns and why I have them but instead simply attribute them to some ulterior motive |
Your "concerns" are no longer a valid excuse to want to throw Cyprus back to 1960-like arrangements that evidently didn't work.
Today, Cyprus is a very different animal altogether with the EU meticulously dictating every aspect of life and imposing severe fines when standards are not even met in time.
Any notion that Turkish Cypriots may lose out in any way or form is nothing but propaganda material used by those who directly or indirectly push for a separate "state".
There comes a time when we need to be honest with ourselves and that time has now come for the Turkish Cypriots... yourself included Erolz. |
Play a different record  |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Get Real! wrote: |
| Your "concerns" are no longer a valid excuse to want to throw Cyprus back to 1960-like arrangements that evidently didn't work. |
The fact remains that the record of how the Greek Cypriot community treated the Turkish Cypriot community, their concerns and desires as a community from 60-74 is atrocious. Yet I am supposed to trust that a politically dominant Greek Cypriot community in a unitary Cyprus would never again treat the Turkish Cypriot community as if it was an 'immigrant' community with no valid communal voice or say in the running of it's own (shared) homeland, whilst you even today can not bring your self to type concerns without inverted commas and take every opportunity to express you notions on who are true ingenious Cypriots and who are not?
| Get Real! wrote: |
Today, Cyprus is a very different animal altogether with the EU meticulously dictating every aspect of life and imposing severe fines when standards are not even met in time. |
I see nothing different in your attitude to those of the Greek Cypriot (Greek really) nationalist that historically did so much to get Cyprus i the state it is in today. You may believe that the EU is some magic panacea to ethnic conflict within member states but I do not. The EU does not involve itself in the internal ethnic conflicts on member states. Not in Northern Island or anywhere else. The protections that the EU has for human rights existed before the Republic of Cyprus EU entry - namely via the CoE and the ECHR which the Republic of Cyprus joined in 1961 and we know how effective they were in protecting innocent Cypriots from state run and sponsored violence and terror don't we ? We also know how effective the UN was as well. We also know how well the EU has protected the communal rights of ethnic Turks living in Greece - even today.
| Get Real! wrote: |
Any notion that Turkish Cypriots may lose out in any way or form is nothing but propaganda material used by those who directly or indirectly push for a separate "state". |
So once more you apparently want to find a solution to our communal differences by telling me that my concerns are in fact made up propaganda designed to push for a separate state. It does not surprise me that this is your position for anything else would require you to be able to admit and accept the role that YOUR community played in creating this mess and how attitudes that you still express today contributed. So clearly the better 'solution' (see I can use inverted commas as well) for you is to just deny that the Turkish Cypriot have any valid concerns at all, as if everything that got us to this point up to 74 never happened.
| Get Real! wrote: |
There comes a time when we need to be honest with ourselves and that time has now come for the Turkish Cypriots... yourself included Erolz. |
And you? When will you be able to be honest with yourself and us I wonder? Will you ever be able to be honest enough with yourself to accept and realise that the mess we are in today is not just about what happened from 74 onwards but earlier and how your own attitudes TODAY are just propagating those that caused so much division and pain and suffering to start with? I for one will not be holding my breath. |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2872
Location: Australia
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Erolz there is NO solution that will please any settlers OR any Turkish Cypriot who have benefited from the misfortunes of others (Dentash and his mates) OR any Greek Cypriot who have done the same(Clerides and his mates)!
Oh Yes I forgot there is one solution that fits all of the above:
The NON Solution OR should I say as Cyprus is CURRENTLY NOW but with recognition by the UN and the EU BUT unfortunately that is impossible:
Yes there maybe a Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and you can see it and feel it and what it BUT what does the UN and the EU have to say is what matters and ALL the Settlers and all the Denktash and Clerides bum chums are really living on borrowed time and there word is just a piss in the wind!
East Germany and Indonesia once laughed at the Berlin Wall and East Timor didn't they? I think that Russia & Serbia laughed as well!
cheers |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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| depurple wrote: |
Erolz there is NO solution that will please any settlers OR any Turkish Cypriot who have benefited from the misfortunes of others (Dentash and his mates) OR any Greek Cypriot who have done the same(Clerides and his mates)!
Oh Yes I forgot there is one solution that fits all of the above:
The NON Solution OR should I say as Cyprus is CURRENTLY NOW but with recognition by the UN and the EU BUT unfortunately that is impossible:
Yes there maybe a Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and you can see it and feel it and what it BUT what does the UN and the EU have to say is what matters and ALL the Settlers and all the Denktash and Clerides bum chums are really living on borrowed time and there word is just a piss in the wind!
East Germany and Indonesia once laughed at the Berlin Wall and East Timor didn't they? I think that Russia & Serbia laughed as well!
cheers |
Did Serbia & Montenegro or Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia also laugh? |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1641
Location: Canada
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...speaking of regional politics, how about these countries in alliance, as cooperators and in trade, from a geographic context a global partner.... it could work for the mitigation that happenes after disasters, (natural or manmade)...
..in another thread, pg writes his take, and it is superbly well thought out, http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=78170&sid=9a63f3243c6baf83e6f70dae5276b5e2#78170 and it provokes these comments for this thread:
I cannot agree to a system of State which assigns to its citizens an identity which may define them for unequal treatment.
Imagine, in my world, you are a grecophone living in the North (or a tourcophone livung in the South); not living in an enclave:
You vote for a turcophone (grecophone) representative in a National Assembly as a minority where Turkish (Greek) is first, yet enshrined in its Constitution is recognition for the provision of services in other languages.
there is no fair solution without repopulation of the island.
Tearing the fabric which we have provided for ourselves for fifty years now is not a good idea. However, in terms of tailoring its defficiency to suit the needs of this society, pocketing the island is not a bad idea.
Imagine, in my world, having three votes, for your representation in the State, (the Republic of Cyprus), having a leader, our President, whose party has won a majority of seats, in an Upper House which is evenly divided, having the same number of seats for its turcophone and its grecophone representatives, elected from two slates of candidates, where each party must strive to provide for each citizen their choice of one Turkish Representative and one Greek Representative. And imagine the transparency of this government if it had to fill the seats in its committes with members of the Lower House, the third vote, who elected as independants without National Party support or affiliation, debate their findings, and vote for legislation, through their speaker by consensus, they are the representatives of their ridings and its population, for Good Government. |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5355
Location: National Forest, England
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We can talk about all the possible solutions under the sun, but it doesn't change one thing... most of us on this forum are either not based in Cyprus or aren't Cypriot at all. The crux of the Cyprus problem is this: all recent polls show that young Cypriots (i.e. those under 30 who have grown up and still live in Cyprus) increasingly feel little or no connection with those on the other side of the line and have no desire for (re-)unification of a state they have never known, and even less to have to share power with those that they don't know or trust.
That is the essence of the Cyprus problem today. It's less a problem of politicians or military men, it's more a problem of two separate generations who feel no kinship with those living 10 miles north or south of them.
Many people in this forum feel that education is key to changing this. But you can't instil a sense of nationhood or kinship, it is an organic process and not something that you can impose. As we've seen around the world during the past decades, imposed kinship can only result in another Srebrenica, Vukovar, Chechnya and so on.
So, aside from all the relevant and emotive arguments about return of land, property etc., the only real solution in Cyprus is for two states to exist, both running their own affairs and rely on the economic, infrastructural and social interdependence that a normal state of affairs existing between the two would generate to bind the two sides of the island together. The only part that education has to play is to teach people not to hate anymore. But the more that politicians, educators and other top-level officials try to force people together, the more they will dissent.
It's a sad situation, but my take on it is that Cyprus will not be reunified in our lifetimes. It may be reunified politically, but this will only bring self-imposed apartheid. As far as I'm concerned, if a forced union results in the shedding of one drop of blood, it's too high a cost. Cynical maybe, but my conversations with young Cypriots have all shown me that there is no appetite for reunification at any cost. To be honest, we should listen to them. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 819
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Cannedmoosse, can you be more pesimistic than that!!!
Firtly I don't know how accurate your polls are.
Secondly I believe the extreme majority of Greek Cypriots want a united Cyprus
Thirdly, look at the work the united Cyprus Platform is doing |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
We can talk about all the possible solutions under the sun, but it doesn't change one thing... most of us on this forum are either not based in Cyprus or aren't Cypriot at all. The crux of the Cyprus problem is this: all recent polls show that young Cypriots (i.e. those under 30 who have grown up and still live in Cyprus) increasingly feel little or no connection with those on the other side of the line and have no desire for (re-)unification of a state they have never known, and even less to have to share power with those that they don't know or trust.
That is the essence of the Cyprus problem today. It's less a problem of politicians or military men, it's more a problem of two separate generations who feel no kinship with those living 10 miles north or south of them.
Many people in this forum feel that education is key to changing this. But you can't instil a sense of nationhood or kinship, it is an organic process and not something that you can impose. As we've seen around the world during the past decades, imposed kinship can only result in another Srebrenica, Vukovar, Chechnya and so on.
So, aside from all the relevant and emotive arguments about return of land, property etc., the only real solution in Cyprus is for two states to exist, both running their own affairs and rely on the economic, infrastructural and social interdependence that a normal state of affairs existing between the two would generate to bind the two sides of the island together. The only part that education has to play is to teach people not to hate anymore. But the more that politicians, educators and other top-level officials try to force people together, the more they will dissent.
It's a sad situation, but my take on it is that Cyprus will not be reunified in our lifetimes. It may be reunified politically, but this will only bring self-imposed apartheid. As far as I'm concerned, if a forced union results in the shedding of one drop of blood, it's too high a cost. Cynical maybe, but my conversations with young Cypriots have all shown me that there is no appetite for reunification at any cost. To be honest, we should listen to them. |
Great post and insight into the problem, well done many will want to ignore what you have to say but if the young are our future they do not see themselves united with the other side and this is a clear indication of things to come.. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 819
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Erolz wrote:
| Quote: |
| So what protections do you invisage in your unitary democratic state that would protect the Turkish Cypriot community from having something like enosis, a purely Greek Cypriot desire, imposed on them against their will in their own (shared) homeland ? |
From memory you grew up in Britain or something, true? What protections did you have there? Same applies in Cyprus and in all the multicultural countries in the world.
| Quote: |
| I have done my best to explain what my concerns and fears are , why I have them and why the idea that the kind of solutions I believe are a fair, democratic and a necessary stage in any potential future development of a true unitary Cypriot nation. It seems that my best efforts have failed and that you believe that my expressed desire and need for some degree of political equality for the Turkish Cypriot community in a unified Cyprus are actually nothing to do with my expressed reasons but simply because I really want something that I know to be unjust, unfair , unnecessary in order to accrue some kind of gain for my community at the expense of the Greek Cypriot community in Cyprus. This is just not the case and it is hard to see how we can find a future that addresses my concerns and needs along with yours if you simply can not or will not understand my concerns and why I have them but instead simply attribute them to some ulterior motive |
Why do you put it that way?
I can similarly argue that my concerns for a fair solution are also failed, despite my best efforts to explain them to you!
Sorry, your concerns respectfull but I think your arguments don't address the interests of Cyprus and Cypriots as a whole but you rather focus on the concerns of Turkish Cypriots alone. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
Erolz wrote:
| Quote: |
| So what protections do you invisage in your unitary democratic state that would protect the Turkish Cypriot community from having something like enosis, a purely Greek Cypriot desire, imposed on them against their will in their own (shared) homeland ? |
From memory you grew up in Britain or something, true? What protections did you have there? Same applies in Cyprus and in all the multicultural countries in the world.
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You seem to think that all I should want and need as a Turkish Cypriot in cyprus is the same kind of protections that immigrant communities have in the UK. Well I am sorry but that is not sufficient to me with regards to Cyprus - and the reason it is not sufficient (apart from the fact that Turkish Cypriot are no more 'immigrants' to Cyprus than Greek Cypriot) is becuase of the way the Greek Cypriot community has historically sought to impose it's purely Greek Cypriot (greek) will on the Turkish Cypriot community, in their own homeland. If you want to imagine a comparrision with the UK, then first imagine that Scots were condisdered by the USA as the 'ancient enemy of the USA' and that exisiting scottish americans were discriminated against historicaly and even today. Then imagine that the english and ONLY the english wanted to delcare the whole of the UK part of america, and the scots were totaly opposed this being forced upon them. In such a senario I would defend the scotsd right to block such proposals - for the english should have no right to impose a purely english desire on scots just because their are more english within the UK than scotts within the UK imo.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
Why do you put it that way?
I can similarly argue that my concerns for a fair solution are also failed, despite my best efforts to explain them to you!
Sorry, your concerns communities but I think your arguments don't address the interests of Cyprus and Cypriots as a whole but you rather focus on the concerns of Turkish Cypriots alone. |
My problem is that you do not seem able to accept that I have these concerns and why at all. You do not have to agree with them, but its frustrating when all you do is tell me that they are 'made up' and that actually I am just expressing them for ulterior motives (which I am not) or that they simply do not exist at all (which they clearly did in the past). |
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