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DigenisAkritas
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Senior Villager
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
Location: London
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| zan wrote: |
| DigenisAkritas wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| Going back to your final judgment, what are the criteria and who sets them or is it just down to luck? |
Again, I believe there will be a final judgment, I cannot stipulate further than that. I simply believe that is the natural order of things. |
Is there a natural order to spirituality? |
Yes, in my opinion, the natural order of the Universe conveys this fact, as Spinoza showed. |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| DigenisAkritas wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| DigenisAkritas wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| Going back to your final judgment, what are the criteria and who sets them or is it just down to luck? |
Again, I believe there will be a final judgment, I cannot stipulate further than that. I simply believe that is the natural order of things. |
Is there a natural order to spirituality? |
Yes, in my opinion, the natural order of the Universe conveys this fact, as Spinoza showed. |
| Quote: |
IVP28: Knowledge of God is the mind's greatest good: its greatest virtue is to know God.
Spinoza |
Why are we not born with this knowledge? Why does god have to put us through such a natural order process? Are we first made and then graded like the micro chips in our computers? What is going wrong with gods conveyor belt and who judges his mistakes? |
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DigenisAkritas
Currently banned
Senior Villager
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
Location: London
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|
| zan wrote: |
| DigenisAkritas wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| DigenisAkritas wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| Going back to your final judgment, what are the criteria and who sets them or is it just down to luck? |
Again, I believe there will be a final judgment, I cannot stipulate further than that. I simply believe that is the natural order of things. |
Is there a natural order to spirituality? |
Yes, in my opinion, the natural order of the Universe conveys this fact, as Spinoza showed. |
| Quote: |
IVP28: Knowledge of God is the mind's greatest good: its greatest virtue is to know God.
Spinoza |
Why are we not born with this knowledge? Why does god have to put us through such a natural order process? Are we first made and then graded like the micro chips in our computers? What is going wrong with gods conveyor belt and who judges his mistakes? |
God is detached from the world in a deistic sense, he created it, but is not omnipotent and omnipresent, therefore he is under no obligation to explain to us (even if he could), what we should do, the process from the events of the collision of matter and anti-matter have been a story of human accomplishment on the whole that I believe will eventually bring answers to these great questions, though we may die out before we can, who knows. |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| Quote: |
| God is detached from the world in a deistic sense, he created it, but is not omnipotent and omnipresent, therefore he is under no obligation to explain to us (even if he could), what we should do, |
Fine, but why not include that part of us, that is so essential, into our nature. Why not put that into our makeup so we can live our lives enlightened from the start?
| Quote: |
| the process from the events of the collision of matter and anti-matter have been a story of human accomplishment on the whole that I believe will eventually bring answers to these great questions, though we may die out before we can, who knows. |
We weren't there at the beginning why should we be there at the end?
Will the Big Crunch be the end of god too? |
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DigenisAkritas
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
Location: London
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| zan wrote: |
Fine, but why not include that part of us, that is so essential, into our nature. Why not put that into our makeup so we can live our lives enlightened from the start? |
You are making the assumption of an interventionalist god again, this is not what Deism says. If god has given us anything, willingly or unknowingly, it is simply initiative, that is it. This iniative in itself is an art of self-perfection, the growth of learning for example.
| Quote: |
We weren't there at the beginning why should we be there at the end? |
There may well be other species out there who have existed for a longer time, but we cannot speak of a Universal achievement of all species because we do not know of all the species in the Universe, we know of only ourselves as the sole example of intelligent life. I never claimed there was any guarantee we will be there at any 'end' anyway.
| Quote: |
| Will the Big Crunch be the end of god too? |
What big crunch? The theory of a shrinking Universe? |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| Quote: |
| You are making the assumption of an interventionalist god again, this is not what Deism says. If god has given us anything, willingly or unknowingly, it is simply initiative, that is it. This iniative in itself is an art of self-perfection, the growth of learning for example. |
Isn't the creation of a universe the biggest intervention of all?
Are you saying that he lit the fuse for the Big Bang and everything else just happened?
Can an all seeing god do anything unknowingly?
| Quote: |
| What big crunch? The theory of a shrinking Universe? |
Yes! |
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DigenisAkritas
Currently banned
Senior Villager
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
Location: London
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| zan wrote: |
Isn't the creation of a universe the biggest intervention of all?
Are you saying that he lit the fuse for the Big Bang and everything else just happened?
Can an all seeing god do anything unknowingly? |
Deists (most at least) do not believe in omnipotence and omnipresence Zan, look at the wikipedia article, I think you are misunderstanding Deism with another form of Theism, Deists believe in a 'Distant God', the God of Spinoza, or of Einstein. Unknowable but still a principle of creation itself.
Thats really, really in depth theoretical physics. Some believe the Universe is ever expanding, with galaxies, planets, solar systems and stars pulling ever further apart from one another, others believe it will approach a tipping point and then reverse. As there is no clear consensus on this issue it is simply impossible to comment on anything other than a purely hypothetical level. |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| DigenisAkritas wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
Isn't the creation of a universe the biggest intervention of all?
Are you saying that he lit the fuse for the Big Bang and everything else just happened?
Can an all seeing god do anything unknowingly? |
Deists (most at least) do not believe in omnipotence and omnipresence Zan, look at the wikipedia article, I think you are misunderstanding Deism with another form of Theism, Deists believe in a 'Distant God', the God of Spinoza, or of Einstein. Unknowable but still a principle of creation itself.
Thats really, really in depth theoretical physics. Some believe the Universe is ever expanding, with galaxies, planets, solar systems and stars pulling ever further apart from one another, others believe it will approach a tipping point and then reverse. As there is no clear consensus on this issue it is simply impossible to comment on anything other than a purely hypothetical level. |
Wow! Most religions try to bring god as close as they can to themselves but Deists seem to have cast him to the furthest point in the universe. He has no input into our lives but still judges us from afar. He waits for us to die and then condemns us to what ever awaits.
My idea of religion fits into a natural process of mans evolution in order to make sense of the world. We have progressed since then and have less need of the reassurance that religion can give. It seems to me that Desists are still holding on to the primitive need for religion by their finger tips. They have managed to shrug off nearly all the trappings of religion except for their belief in god. It is pointless praying because god is not an interventionist.
| Quote: |
IVP28: Knowledge of God is the mind's greatest good: its greatest virtue is to know God.
Spinoza |
Could this also be the point where you realise that god does not exist? |
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DigenisAkritas
Currently banned
Senior Villager
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
Location: London
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| zan wrote: |
| DigenisAkritas wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
Isn't the creation of a universe the biggest intervention of all?
Are you saying that he lit the fuse for the Big Bang and everything else just happened?
Can an all seeing god do anything unknowingly? |
Deists (most at least) do not believe in omnipotence and omnipresence Zan, look at the wikipedia article, I think you are misunderstanding Deism with another form of Theism, Deists believe in a 'Distant God', the God of Spinoza, or of Einstein. Unknowable but still a principle of creation itself.
Thats really, really in depth theoretical physics. Some believe the Universe is ever expanding, with galaxies, planets, solar systems and stars pulling ever further apart from one another, others believe it will approach a tipping point and then reverse. As there is no clear consensus on this issue it is simply impossible to comment on anything other than a purely hypothetical level. |
Wow! Most religions try to bring god as close as they can to themselves but Deists seem to have cast him to the furthest point in the universe. He has no input into our lives but still judges us from afar. He waits for us to die and then condemns us to what ever awaits.
My idea of religion fits into a natural process of mans evolution in order to make sense of the world. We have progressed since then and have less need of the reassurance that religion can give. It seems to me that Desists are still holding on to the primitive need for religion by their finger tips. They have managed to shrug off nearly all the trappings of religion except for their belief in god. It is pointless praying because god is not an interventionist.
| Quote: |
IVP28: Knowledge of God is the mind's greatest good: its greatest virtue is to know God.
Spinoza |
Could this also be the point where you realise that god does not exist? |
No, it just seems logical to me to assume that there is a creator behind all of this, the universe is so vast and expansive that for it's existence to have no principle seems mad, for there to even be the blank canvass of the empty shell that was the universe in the first place also implies this. |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| Quote: |
| No, it just seems logical to me to assume that there is a creator behind all of this, the universe is so vast and expansive that for it's existence to have no principle seems mad, for there to even be the blank canvass of the empty shell that was the universe in the first place also implies this. |
Is the logic you apply to this not just another human weakness in that we cannot imagine the concept of "nothing". Perhaps it helps if you see nothing as an entity and that entity developed a fault that was the Big Bang.Could the canvas and the painting have appeared at the same time?
Also if the Deists believe that god is not an interventionist and not omnipotent nor omnipresent, is it just logic that is used to prove his existence or does it involve a leap of faith. The latter of the two seems to be a scary prospect for the Deists where knowledge is the route to enlightenment. If it is pure logic that is applied then surely they have to realise that their god theory is just an adaptation of existing and long gone religions and therefore man made. |
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DigenisAkritas
Currently banned
Senior Villager
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
Location: London
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| zan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| No, it just seems logical to me to assume that there is a creator behind all of this, the universe is so vast and expansive that for it's existence to have no principle seems mad, for there to even be the blank canvass of the empty shell that was the universe in the first place also implies this. |
Is the logic you apply to this not just another human weakness in that we cannot imagine the concept of "nothing". Perhaps it helps if you see nothing as an entity and that entity developed a fault that was the Big Bang.Could the canvas and the painting have appeared at the same time?
Also if the Deists believe that god is not an interventionist and not omnipotent nor omnipresent, is it just logic that is used to prove his existence or does it involve a leap of faith. The latter of the two seems to be a scary prospect for the Deists where knowledge is the route to enlightenment. If it is pure logic that is applied then surely they have to realise that their god theory is just an adaptation of existing and long gone religions and therefore man made. |
The fact that Deists apply Science to God, like Spinoza did, as Einstein said:
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
- Albert Einstein
If we were to believe in an interventionalist god it would defy logic. The fact we do not believe we can 'know' God in classical Theistic argument differentiates us from them.
Also, the idea of the canvass and the painting appearing at the same time, could you please expand on this idea a little? I am intrigued. |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| Quote: |
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
- Albert Einstein |
Was it not Einstein that stumbled on the Chaos Theory and then spent years trying to prove himself wrong convinced that he had made a mistake? Not so orderly after all.
As for the canvas and the painting appearing at the same time, is that not what happened with the Big Bang. A few millionths of a second after the big bang the Universe was infinitely small and the matter created within it infinitely dense, an instant Black hole if you like, then it expands at the speed of light. I am not talking about a static canvas or painting but an expanding one that grows with a Chaotic but well ruled order. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| zan wrote: |
| Quote: |
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
- Albert Einstein |
Was it not Einstein that stumbled on the Chaos Theory and then spent years trying to prove himself wrong convinced that he had made a mistake? Not so orderly after all. |
I think you are referring to his quote along the lines of 'God does not play dice' - which was an expression of Einstein's dissatisfaction with quantum theory that had been derived from his earlier work on relativity, which was based as i understand it on concepts of a limit of 'knowablilty' at quantum levels and an inherent random / probabilistic nature of quantum particles.
Chaos theory is actually quite different and is about how seeming chaotic systems can in fact be the result of very simple non linear systems (with feedback).
However this is all my 'ladybird' approach to such subjects which is about the level at which I understand them. For a view from someone who understands such things mathematically try asking thebrix  |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| erolz wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| Quote: |
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
- Albert Einstein |
Was it not Einstein that stumbled on the Chaos Theory and then spent years trying to prove himself wrong convinced that he had made a mistake? Not so orderly after all. |
I think you are referring to his quote along the lines of 'God does not play dice' - which was an expression of Einstein's dissatisfaction with quantum theory that had been derived from his earlier work on relativity, which was based as i understand it on concepts of a limit of 'knowablilty' at quantum levels and an inherent random / probabilistic nature of quantum particles.
Chaos theory is actually quite different and is about how seeming chaotic systems can in fact be the result of very simple non linear systems (with feedback).
However this is all my 'ladybird' approach to such subjects which is about the level at which I understand them. For a view from someone who understands such things mathematically try asking thebrix |
I think I too am stretching my ability and understanding on that erolz and look foreword to hearing thebrix reply, in layman's' terms that is.  |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| zan wrote: |
I think I too am stretching my ability and understanding on that erolz and look foreword to hearing thebrix reply, in layman's' terms that is. |
As I understand it (which is very little in reality) what quantum theory says is that a quantum particle can 50% exist simultaneously in two places at the same time. Not that there is a 50% chance of it existing in either place but that it actually 1/2 exists in both simultaneously. It is only when such a particle is 'measured' that these two simultaneous half existences resolve in to a single existence in the one of the two locations. It is this kind of counter intuitive and 'randomness' that was what Einstein found deeply unsatisfactory about quantum theory and led to his quote that 'God does not play dice' - at least that's how I understand it. However counter intuitive quantum theory is one can not deny is power as a model for the quantum universe and its use in real world applications. Einstein did not like quantum theory but it does appear to be a valid model of the sub atomic universe. |
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