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Turkey (( *
Villager
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Turkey/Switzerland
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| Thanks MicAtCyp, I'd like to watch how they make a fool of themselves... |
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Saint Jimmy
Senior Villager
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 205
Location: Leeds, UK
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| MicAtCyp wrote: |
| I ommited the word "you think" thats why it did not make much sense. |
Yeah, I thought it must have been something like that.
| MicAtCyp wrote: |
| Now to understand his position imagine a forum Administrator running a Turkish Cypriot forum where he refuses to ban out someone whose only job is to attack your relegion and your ethnicity. The Administrator there thought Erol was not right. |
OK, if I am to be completely honest, there are a few quite real differences in what DigenisAkritas, KYPROS-EINAI-ELLHNIKH and all them boys were doing, and what ChomskyFan was doing - I presume he is the one you're referring to.
The most obvious of these differences is that the first two guys (actually, the same guy, right?) did nothing but try to provoke others, without even trying to use an argument. They/He was just begging to be banned, it was too obvious to pass up. But ChomskyFan, I thought, had his arguments in place - weak or misguided as they may have been, it seemed to me as though that kid had done his reading - albeit perhaps the wrong kind of reading. He was blunt and at times outright rude, yes, but then again, in my opinion sometimes so were you and Piratis himself...
I didn't like the guy any more than you or Erol did either, but I'm not too sure that objectively he's in the same batch as the other guys - even if he is the same person.
| MicAtCyp wrote: |
| If I were in his position I would support Erol even if I thought we was not right. This is what I meant. Anyway I beleive he used us and he ridiculed all of us. |
I see.
But I have to agree with Admin that when he asked for your help, he didn't promise anything in return. He asked you guys to implement the rules which he set out, and, unless he sent you guys a different pm than the one he sent me, nowhere did he mention that moderators would be given decision-making privileges.
Obviously, leaving the forum because you disagree with his decisions is one thing (completely plausible); but blaming and turning against him for not granting you something he never promised to grant you is another. |
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brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
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Hey guys, whats upppppp????? so we got a good forum here but i am pissed off about the fact that Admin posted publicly moosey's PM which is bang out of order and those extremists are still there  |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Saint Jimmy wrote: |
OK, if I am to be completely honest, there are a few quite real differences in what DigenisAkritas, KYPROS-EINAI-ELLHNIKH and all them boys were doing, and what ChomskyFan was doing - I presume he is the one you're referring to. |
Imo there was difference in the way they / he were doing it but no in what they were doing - damaging the forums.
| Saint Jimmy wrote: |
They/He was just begging to be banned, it was too obvious to pass up. |
And eventually he was banned, though it took the admin over three days to actually get round to this, after PM's from me and requests in the mods only section that he look at what was going on
| Saint Jimmy wrote: |
But ChomskyFan, I thought, had his arguments in place -. |
He had / has several 'lines' that he wishes to push - but if you look closely he did not argue his case. Whenever he was seriously challenged in a thread, he simply ignore that and moved the pushing of these 'lines' in other threads. Just a couple of examples were when he made allegations about my personal views on kurds and turkey - to support his 'thesis' that I (all Turkish Cypriot) were nationalist hypocritical extremists. He refused to support this allegation with any evidence and when faced with my actual post on the kurds that was the diamterical opposite to the view he claimed I had, he simply moved on to spread the same 'argument' elsewhere. The same with his claim that Denktash had admitted involvement in placing bombs on 'numerous' occasions. Again when asked to support this, he blustered a bit and simplt ignored the argument and moved to other threads.
What he had in place were his prejudices. If he had been wiling and able to argue his case that would have been one thing. The reality was he had / has no desire to do this beyond a superfical appearance. His desire is to promote his prejudices - not argue them.
| Saint Jimmy wrote: |
I didn't like the guy any more than you or Erol did either, but I'm not too sure that objectively he's in the same batch as the other guys - even if he is the same person. |
This has nothing to do with not liking the guy or even his views. It has to do with how he behaves and how much damage he does to the forums. In my opinion he was / is the single most damaging user on the forum there. In a way this is self evident by the result of his actions and the refusal of the admin to bring him under control.
People have said you do not defeat extremism by 'banning it' or 'pretending it is not there'. In general I agree with this view. However if you are interested in confronting and dealing with extremism, you have to understand and accept the 'aysmetrical' nature of extremsim vs moderate nature. Quite simply you need orders of magnitude more moderates to combat a single extremists. In forum terms a moderate plays by certain 'rules', the extremist does not. I moderate takes the time and effort to support their views and face challenges, the extremist does not do this beyond a surface 'sheen' of 'reason' and when challeneged they move elsewhere and repeat the extrem views. All this means that moderates have to work harder and in greater numbers to combat extremism - and this was not and is not happening in CF's case.
So we come to the 'crucial' similarity between CF and more blatant less 'sophisticated' extremists that did get banned. Look at the volume of posts per day. As of last night CF had a 'post per day' of 32.9! No other user of the forum that I can find gets close to this number (with one exception - Greek Maniac with 34.67). I have looked at the top 25 users by post volume and there is no one even close to this number. The next highest being 17.94% and the average being under 10%. In fact the only other users I can find that come close or exceed this number are as said before 'Greek Maniac' and the banned users DigenisAkritas (at 46.33 posts per day in the period he was not banned) and Kypros-Einai-whatever (at 22.33). See a pattern here?
So it is all very well for people like Alexandros to pop into the forum and say we should not ban these people but should use reason and argument to change them. But without action such words are meaningless. Without moderates countering the volume of extremist posts in similar volume (and in excess because extremists all ways have the advantage) this is little more than 'wishful thinking'. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| brother wrote: |
| Hey guys, whats upppppp????? so we got a good forum here but i am pissed off about the fact that Admin posted publicly moosey's PM which is bang out of order and those extremists are still there |
Hi Brother
Welconme to the forums and great to have you on board. |
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MicAtCyp
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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Hosgeldin brother,
Can you you us the link? I did notice that publication....
**************
Jimmy,
He never sent me a PM, and never told me how to do the moderation.Nothing at all. I simply saw from one day to another that I became a Mod. His "rules" were spread all over the forum.Which rule says anything about deleting one line posts?
Just 3 days ago I received an E mail that I became a Moderator!!!! i.e almost 3 weeks after. There are more evidence that Piratis is actually the Admin. I sent him a PM to correct one of his posts and he replied harshly saying "did you discuss your procedure with the Admin, did you get approval etc."The very next day he created the secret Mods room. He did not even inform me of its existence.Then Erolz told me.I get in and I see a hell of discussions there....
I agree with you I was rude many times.I beleive when you discuss a lot there is no way to avoid that. Even Kifeas started polite and ended up rude sometimes.
Anyway enough. |
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brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
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Thanks for the welcome guys,
Micatcyp do you want me to find the link where moosey's PM was made public?
If so no problem.  |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Saint Jimmy wrote: |
But I have to agree with Admin that when he asked for your help, he didn't promise anything in return. He asked you guys to implement the rules which he set out, and, unless he sent you guys a different pm than the one he sent me, nowhere did he mention that moderators would be given decision-making privileges.
Obviously, leaving the forum because you disagree with his decisions is one thing (completely plausible); but blaming and turning against him for not granting you something he never promised to grant you is another. |
Again Jimmy from my perspective it is not as simple as you suggest.
Firstly if moderators have no brief to make 'judgement calls' then what is the role of moderator for? To report abusive users to an admin that sometimes would not respond at all or do so after several days? In which case why make the mods at all?
From my perspective the admin encourage us (mods) to discuss the rules and agree a common set. Some of us did this contributing much time and effort into this, with no input from the admin, who then after encouraging but not contributing this discussion, came back and laid down a set of rules.
However the real reason I flet my role of moderator on the other forums was untennable was a feeling of total lack of any support from the admin. Maybe they never promised such support but I took it as a given. It felt like the admin would ingore or be tardy on some issues (like the 3 days+ it took to actually ban cyprusisgreek user) but swift and 'aithoritarian' on others. It was this patchy and in my view incosistent behaviour by the admin with regards to the mods he had appointed, coupled with a reluctance to deal with CF, or ven to argue his case that CF should not be dealt with that ultimately lead to me leaving as a mod.
Do not get me wrong. Overall (and putting aside MicAtCyp's view re who this person actually is for the moment) I think they did an admiral job and the forums were a great place. During all this time I gave my support to the admin consistently and reapeatedly. However when the going got tough I felt they failed and were unable to see this failure or discuss it with those who clearly had a strong desire to see the forums continue as a great place to go and have discussion about Cyprus problem. My first reaction was not to 'break away' but to try and work with the admin and convince him of the necessity of certain actions. It was not that he disagreed with me - I can handle that. It was that he did not offer any support, did not engage in discussion with those whom he had appointed, acted himslef in patchy and inconsistent ways and then essentialy took the 'side' of posters like CF over those people he had appointed as moderator and who had been the backbone of a sucsessful forum.
Oh and just for the record I talked with the admin on and off for maybe a year about possibly being a moderator on the forums, without any real conclusion. When it happened however I got no notification that I can recall. No 'guidelines' as to what I should or should not do. I just noticed one day that my user details said 'moderator'. |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5357
Location: National Forest, England
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| brother wrote: |
Thanks for the welcome guys,
Micatcyp do you want me to find the link where moosey's PM was made public?
If so no problem. |
Welcome to the forum Bro... good to see you read your email at last  |
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brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
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| Quote: |
| Welcome to the forum Bro... good to see you read your email at last |
Thanks gardas, using my work mac to access it but what the hell, my broadband is online tommorrow, so all will be good. |
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MicAtCyp
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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Yes brother give me the link if possible.
Thanks
*************
Another thing I would like to mention is that Mod causes a lot of tension and nervousness. You always think, what shall I do now, if I do it to him I must do the same to the other to be fair.Shall I do it, shall I not? And its not only one case.It is at least 20 everyday. Now I go there and still feel this nervousness.
What the heck, I will go to the beach now, I dont care anymore.
Freedom is valuable guys  :!:
By the way what erolz said above is correct
And i have copies of the Mod room discussions for anyone interested (until the day I resigned). |
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MicAtCyp
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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| Hey brother your avatar is shaking too much re |
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brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
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brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
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| Quote: |
| Hey brother your avatar is shaking too much re |
Ree, you don't want to know what he is up to |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5357
Location: National Forest, England
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| I seem to have been banned now too folks... obviously admin is clamping down... |
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