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The hidden wives of Turkey
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brother
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: The hidden wives of Turkey Reply with quote

The hidden wives of Turkey


By Nick Read
Producer/Director, World Weddings: The Second Wife



The villages of south-east Anatolia, in the corner of Turkey that borders Iraq and Syria, are bleak, hauntingly beautiful places that do not give up their secrets lightly.

It is part of what Kurds claim as their homeland, where years of violent struggle between Kurdish separatists and the Turkish government have left more than 30,000 killed.

The government outlawed the practice of polygamy nearly a century ago. But Islamic custom can allow men to take up to four wives.

In this devoutly Muslim region, it is estimated that nearly a quarter of all marriages are polygamous.

Men like 32-year-old Resat Yagdi regard it as their birthright. He is a part-time electrician and onion farmer, with a beautiful wife and three children, one just a week old.

But despite these blessings, he is determined to take a second wife to enhance his prosperity and prestige in the village.

Price of a bride

He has chosen a girl who lives virtually next door - Ayse Aymaz - who is eight years his junior.

But while preparing to marry Ayse, he soon learned that love comes at a price.

To win Ayse's hand, first Resat must build her a new home, and pay her parents a substantial bride price. By the time he marries, he will be £18,000 out of pocket.





But after what Resat considered to be an unhappy first marriage, it is a price worth paying. He says: "Ayse is so feminine. She is everything I've ever dreamt of. She's my perfect type."

For Resat's 22-year-old sister, Melihat, the clock is ticking.

Her marriage will soon be arranged by her father, who has three wives himself, and her price negotiated with the groom's family.

Melihat knows she is regarded purely as an economic asset: "They sell girls like animals; we're not treated as human beings."

Some are sold into marriage as young as 12 years old. Girls who run away are simply killed, in what are euphemistically called "honour" killings.

Unsurprisingly there are few prepared to speak out against these practices.

One of the few campaigners, Ayla Sumbul, teaches women to read and write in the slums of one of Anatolia's largest cities, Sanliurfa.

She spells out the consequences for wives who do not comply: "If the first wife complains then she gets beaten, or the husband punishes her and the children by not providing them with food. She becomes a prisoner."

Ayla has recently uncovered a disturbing side effect of polygamy and inbreeding.

'A quiet affair'

Repeated intermarrying within families, typically between first and second cousins, has produced abnormally high rates of children with Downs Syndrome and Mediterranean anaemia.

Ayse is Resat's cousin, but nobody in his village sees anything wrong with it.

But because polygamy is illegal, Resat has to keep his wedding a quiet affair.

So quiet that the bride's family is not invited. Nor in fact is the bride present at the ceremony.

She is kept veiled in the bedroom, while a local Imam arrives to recite all the necessary Koranic verses in the presence of the groom and two male witnesses.

Within two days of the wedding and marriage being consummated, Ayse is put to work in Resat's onion fields.

From a Western perspective, polygamy appears to be little better than slavery.

In the brutal, feudal world of south-east Anatolia, women are bought and sold for sex, for free labour and men's pride.

And for Ayse, there will be no honeymoon. Yet she has no regrets: "I don't care whether he's penniless or not. It's not important to me what he's worth. It's all because I love him."

Polygamy is illegal in Turkey, but in practice it is allowed to continue. In remote areas like this, Turkey risks antagonising Kurdish separatists by intervening in tradition and customs.

But as Turkey seeks to negotiate entry into the European Union, polygamy and other human rights issues are likely to attract greater international attention.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/4165896.stm
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Dhavlos
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeh, read that......its quite bad these women are treated that way.

No offence, but you can really see now why turkey would need a good 15years before they enter the EU, anything (geographically) right of Ankara seems to be quite far from the 'ideals' of the EU....do you see what i mean?
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brother
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't argue that re dhavlos.
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detailer

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually the straightforward way for Turkey is splitting in the way PKK wants.

In this way,
1) Population will decrease(20 milions)
2) They wont be neighbours to Iraq, Iran, Syria anymore(or in a lesser degree). EU countries will like this & Turkey will spend less on military.
3) No more ethnic problems.
4) Average living standard of the people will increase.

Let the kurds deal with arab countries then. What do you think?
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brother
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the best way is the uk style where they have their own parliments, mp's etc. but are not allowed any military and is protected by Turkey.Moosey explains it a lot better. Wink
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cannedmoose
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's called 'devolution' Bro'... but it amounts to federalism, where each region has control over most administrative and some legislative areas, yet areas such as foreign affairs, defence and other areas vital to national cohesion remain at a central level. I think in the long run this would be the ideal solution to Turkey's problems. Giving the Kurds a measure of self-rule would go a long way to putting a plaster on the open sore that is the PKK.
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detailer

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brother wrote:
I think the best way is the uk style where they have their own parliments, mp's etc. but are not allowed any military and is protected by Turkey.Moosey explains it a lot better. Wink


Brother if they want freeodom, they should also pay for it. They shouldnt have the right to get protection etc. Let them deal with their own problems, also pay higher taxes for their investments in Turkey or leave them to Turkish goverment.
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city

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not exactly the same topic, but I've seen a very interesting documentation on ARTE yesterday (Arte is a german/french television station). It was called "Out of Istanbul" and broached the issue of being gay in Turkey.
Why it comes to my mind now is, because I was surprised that homosexuality has never been illegal in Turkey whereas in other countries it has.
So there are indeed issues where Turkey is not far or even closer to the EU and its propagandised human rights as one might think.....

Here is the link to the docu (in french as I thought this may be more feasible than german Wink ) http://www.arte-tv.com/fr/semaine/244,broadcastingNum=498904,day=4,week=35,year=2005.html
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Dhavlos
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be legal in turkey, but culturally, i think(correct me if im wrong) that homosexuality is more 'accepted' in Europe than in turkey.

PS, ive heard of that TV station, it shows german programmes in french subtitles and vis-versa yeh? We 'learnt' about it in french(when i say learnt, we were learning about french media.....quite boring really)
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city

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dhavlos wrote:
It may be legal in turkey, but culturally, i think(correct me if im wrong) that homosexuality is more 'accepted' in Europe than in turkey.


Sorry, I can't really say. I have never been to Turkey, and to judge from second hand information...? Sad

Dhavlos wrote:
PS, ive heard of that TV station, it shows german programmes in french subtitles and vis-versa yeh?.....


not really. They have a second audio program and I can switch from one language to the other. They don't usually use subtitle.
And they do make their own program, of course often in cooperation with german or french stations, but they have their own production and everything, located in Paris if I'm not mistaken.
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Ixtanbul

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detailer wrote:
Actually the straightforward way for Turkey is splitting in the way PKK wants.

In this way,
1) Population will decrease(20 milions)
2) They wont be neighbours to Iraq, Iran, Syria anymore(or in a lesser degree). EU countries will like this & Turkey will spend less on military.
3) No more ethnic problems.
4) Average living standard of the people will increase.

Let the kurds deal with arab countries then. What do you think?


First of all the official number is 8 million kurds even kurds themselves claim 13 million, where did you come up with 20 million?

Anyhow what you suggest is impossible, theres 1 million kurds in Istanbul alone, theres hundred thousands in Izmir and Ankara. Giving kurds the South East of Turkey doesn't change anything so whats the point of allowing a kurdistan to be created if we can't get rid of kurds?

Secondly Turkey is made up of 34 different ethnic groups (Turks, kurds, Laz, Chechnyians, Bosnians, Albanians, Armenians, Assyrians etc) so when you say "no more ethnic problems" your wrong.

Thirdly it's the South East of Turkey that is backward, the rest is just fine so why make a change if the average Turks life standard isn't going to change?

Also whats wrong with being neighbors with Iraq, Iran or Syria? We are historically and culturally closer to them then we're with Greeks or Bulgarians. Iran and Turkey haven't had any border problem for over 300 years but Turkey and Greece live border problems everyday for the last 30 years so trust me the average Turk prefers Iran as a neighbour then Greece.

Last of all a new nation state in the Middle East will influence the entire region in a negative way. Not just the Middle East but the Caucasus and Balkans will also be effected, if Greeks think a kurdish nation state isn't going to effect there minorities they should think again...
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Xenos 2Fan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1453 wrote:
detailer wrote:
Actually the straightforward way for Turkey is splitting in the way PKK wants.

In this way,
1) Population will decrease(20 milions)
2) They wont be neighbours to Iraq, Iran, Syria anymore(or in a lesser degree). EU countries will like this & Turkey will spend less on military.
3) No more ethnic problems.
4) Average living standard of the people will increase.

Let the kurds deal with arab countries then. What do you think?


First of all the official number is 8 million kurds even kurds themselves claim 13 million, where did you come up with 20 million?

Anyhow what you suggest is impossible, theres 1 million kurds in Istanbul alone, theres hundred thousands in Izmir and Ankara. Giving kurds the South East of Turkey doesn't change anything so whats the point of allowing a kurdistan to be created if we can't get rid of kurds?

Secondly Turkey is made up of 34 different ethnic groups (Turks, kurds, Laz, Chechnyians, Bosnians, Albanians, Armenians, Assyrians etc) so when you say "no more ethnic problems" your wrong.

Thirdly it's the South East of Turkey that is backward, the rest is just fine so why make a change if the average Turks life standard isn't going to change?

Also whats wrong with being neighbors with Iraq, Iran or Syria? We are historically and culturally closer to them then we're with Greeks or Bulgarians. Iran and Turkey haven't had any border problem for over 300 years but Turkey and Greece live border problems everyday for the last 30 years so trust me the average Turk prefers Iran as a neighbour then Greece.

Last of all a new nation state in the Middle East will influence the entire region in a negative way. Not just the Middle East but the Caucasus and Balkans will also be effected, if Greeks think a kurdish nation state isn't going to effect there minorities they should think again...



1453

I too am a very proud Turk and am not a fan of the Kurds to say the least.
Having said that, this forum was created to LEARN from each other so that we may try to solve the problems between mainly Greek and Turkish speaking Cypriots. Thus your screen name may be offensive and damaging to the process that has started on this forum.

You have stated what can not be done as far as the kurdish problem is concerned. Do you care to expand on what YOU feel should be done?

I may be in the minority of the concensus but I like having a border with Greece and prefer it to our borders with the Arabs. If Turkey is to prosper we must look to the west. We may have had cultural ties to the arab world by virtue of Islam in the past but thanks to Ataturk I feel more european or western in culture.

To say that we Turks have more in common with arabs is like tossing out 90 years of progress.

Welcome to the forum.
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Ixtanbul

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2Fan,

First of all my name has been "1453" for over a year on 2 previous Greek Turkish forums and theres people in this forum that know me from those forums with this name. If i changed it they could have thought i was someone else.

Back to the topic,

Quote:
You have stated what can not be done as far as the kurdish problem is concerned. Do you care to expand on what YOU feel should be done?


I say "integration", the Turkish goverment must try more to make sure kurds blend in with the society...

Quote:
I may be in the minority of the concensus but I like having a border with Greece and prefer it to our borders with the Arabs.


Yes you are in the minority cause Turkey is spending millions of $$$ every month securing our Aegean borders while we live none of this with our Eastern borders.

Quote:
If Turkey is to prosper we must look to the west.


Nothing wrong with adopting the advanced sides of the West as long as we don't try to be Western.

Quote:
We may have had cultural ties to the arab world by virtue of Islam in the past but thanks to Ataturk I feel more european or western in culture.


If your a Turk how can you feel European? Are Turks European and am i and the entire European world unaware of this? Last time i remember Europeans were classifying us as "Mongoloids that are the biggest threat to the European civilization" so it's funny your trying to be someone your obviously not...

Btw Atatürk adviced us Turks to adopt the advanced sides of Europe he never said try to be European, actually let me tell you what Atatürk said on the issue;

Efendiler!

Avrupa'nın bütün ilerlemesine, yükselmesine ve medenileşmesine karşılık Türkiye tam tersine gerilemiş ve düşüş vâdisine yuvarlanadurmuştur. Artık vaziyeti düzeltmek için mutlaka Avrupa'dan nasihat almak, bütün işleri Avrupa'nın emellerine göre yapmak, bütün dersleri Avrupa'dan almak gibi bir takım zihniyetler belirdi. Halbuki, hangi istiklâl vardır ki ecnebilerin nasihatleriyle, ecnebilerin planlarıyla yükselebilsin?... Tarih, böyle bir hadiseyi kaydetmemiştir!

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi
6 Mart 1922


Quote:
To say that we Turks have more in common with arabs is like tossing out 90 years of progress.


The Turkish culture is totally different from the Arabic culture just as it's totally different from the Western culture. Why do we have to be one of either? We're Turks and we're unique...

Quote:
Welcome to the forum.


Thank you for the Welcome.
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erolz

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1453 wrote:
Efendiler!

Avrupa'nın bütün ilerlemesine, yükselmesine ve medenileşmesine karşılık Türkiye tam tersine gerilemiş ve düşüş vâdisine yuvarlanadurmuştur. Artık vaziyeti düzeltmek için mutlaka Avrupa'dan nasihat almak, bütün işleri Avrupa'nın emellerine göre yapmak, bütün dersleri Avrupa'dan almak gibi bir takım zihniyetler belirdi. Halbuki, hangi istiklâl vardır ki ecnebilerin nasihatleriyle, ecnebilerin planlarıyla yükselebilsin?... Tarih, böyle bir hadiseyi kaydetmemiştir!

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi
6 Mart 1922


Hi 1453

Could you please provide an english translation for this. We do not mind posts in other languages as long as there is a translation, otherwise large sections of the forums members (myself included!) and viewers are unable to follow the discussions. Thanks
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Xenos 2Fan
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1453 wrote:
2Fan,

First of all my name has been "1453" for over a year on 2 previous Greek Turkish forums and theres people in this forum that know me from those forums with this name. If i changed it they could have thought i was someone else.

I still believe your nick is inflamitory and adhere to my belief that you should change it if you choose to remain on this forum. Full Stop.

Back to the topic,

Quote:
You have stated what can not be done as far as the kurdish problem is concerned. Do you care to expand on what YOU feel should be done?


I say "integration", the Turkish goverment must try more to make sure kurds blend in with the society...

Agreed!!!!!

Quote:
I may be in the minority of the concensus but I like having a border with Greece and prefer it to our borders with the Arabs.


Yes you are in the minority cause Turkey is spending millions of $$$ every month securing our Aegean borders while we live none of this with our Eastern borders.

Especially when we've had the same old tired DINASAURS in office since the 1970ies that could not negotiate their way out of a wet paper bag. The same goes for Greek politicians.
Quote:
If Turkey is to prosper we must look to the west.


Nothing wrong with adopting the advanced sides of the West as long as we don't try to be Western.

Please explain the difference to me. If you adopt the western way of life do you not become western?

Quote:
We may have had cultural ties to the arab world by virtue of Islam in the past but thanks to Ataturk I feel more european or western in culture.


If your a Turk how can you feel European? Are Turks European and am i and the entire European world unaware of this? Last time i remember Europeans were classifying us as "Mongoloids that are the biggest threat to the European civilization" so it's funny your trying to be someone your obviously not...

I am extremely comfortable with the person I have become through study and exploration of diverse cultures. Moreover I never claimed to be western or european. I stated that I felt that way. I am and shall always remain a Turk for better or worse. It's my lot in life and I accept this with no remorse. However, you, as all the rest of the hardcore nationalists believe are better and know more than anyone else. With this attitude there will never be peace between ANYONE! Your post leaves me puzzled. Are you an Ottoman or a Kemalist? Ya can't be both.

Btw Atatürk adviced us Turks to adopt the advanced sides of Europe he never said try to be European, actually let me tell you what Atatürk said on the issue;

Efendiler!

Avrupa'nýn bütün ilerlemesine, yükselmesine ve medenileþmesine karþýlýk Türkiye tam tersine gerilemiþ ve düþüþ vâdisine yuvarlanadurmuþtur. Artýk vaziyeti düzeltmek için mutlaka Avrupa'dan nasihat almak, bütün iþleri Avrupa'nýn emellerine göre yapmak, bütün dersleri Avrupa'dan almak gibi bir takým zihniyetler belirdi. Halbuki, hangi istiklâl vardýr ki ecnebilerin nasihatleriyle, ecnebilerin planlarýyla yükselebilsin?... Tarih, böyle bir hadiseyi kaydetmemiþtir!

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi
6 Mart 1922


Again, what happens when you adopt western culture? Newsflash: Ya become westernised.

Quote:
To say that we Turks have more in common with arabs is like tossing out 90 years of progress.


The Turkish culture is totally different from the Arabic culture just as it's totally different from the Western culture. Why do we have to be one of either? We're Turks and we're unique...

Totally different from European culture? Have you been down to Taksim square lately?

Quote:
Welcome to the forum.


Thank you for the Welcome.
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