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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| zan wrote: |
| cypezokyli wrote: |
the general :
| Quote: |
| Show me just one country that has a homogenous race structure. There are communities all around the world that are proud of the country they live in,� he said. �We have to be sensitive; they are trying to create minorities.� |
what i was saying all along...
this is precisely the reason that greece doesnot accept the term "turkish minority". |
Are you saying that it is alright to so then   |
absolutely not.
but as i wrote in the last page, it is ofcource important to view the it as the problems of the turkish minority in greece. but you cannot understand the eccense of it unless you put it in the general greek-turkish conflict. |
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alexISS
Villager
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Athens, Greece
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| bg_turk wrote: |
| Well, then it is important to find more neutral country names. The name Greece implies it is the country of the ethnic Greeks only. How can a Turk call himself Greek, when he is clearly not? |
And what should Turkey be called?
| bg_turk wrote: |
| I can be both Turkish and American at the same time, but I cannot be Turkish and Bulgarian at the same time - it simply a contradiction. |
Can you be Kurdish and Turkish? Oh sorry, you can't be Kurdish fullstop.
| bg_turk wrote: |
| On another note, nonrecognition of a community as a minority is not a problem. Bulgaria for instance does not recognize any minorities on its territories. The problem in that Greece is the banning associations which belong to ethnic Turks, this uneuropean and illegal. |
Greece recognises she has minorities, Turkey says she has NO minorities whatsoever.
You are such a hypocrite. You "promote" yourself as the defender of minorities blah blah blah but...
| bg_turk wrote: |
| alexISS wrote: |
| Are you telling me that the Kurdish language is taught, spoken and broadcasted freely right now? |
Pretty much.
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You are so conveniently NOT taking part in any discussions concerning human rights violations in Turkey, could you please make an exception this time and tell us what you think of the way Turkey treats the Kurds? How do you feel about what Buyukanit says?
If you still consider yourself a human rights defender though, think twice before visiting Turkey!
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=58365 |
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Khan
Deputy
Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 1092
Location: London
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Actually you are quite far off the mark Alexiss. Both Greece and Turkey use the same reason for not recognising their respective minority. The Treaty of Laussane only made reference to a Muslim minority in Greece, and only Armenian, Greeks and Jews in Turkey.
Turkey recognises Kurds as an ethnicity, but does not accord them a poltical minority status. In Turkeys eyes, everyone is Turkish, and that is a political concept, not a ethnic one. It is similar in France where everyone is regarded as French, except in France they recognise no minorities whatsoever.
As Buyukanit made clear recently, "Ne Mutlu Turkum Diyene" translates not as how happy is he who is a Turk, but how happy is he who says he is a Turk. Do you see the difference?
Last edited by Khan on Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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I had to recite in Bulgarian
"Balgarin da se naricham parva radost e za mene"
"Bulgarian to call myself first happines is to me" |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| Happy is the one who says he is a Cypriot. |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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Happy is the one who can call himself what ever the hell he likes.
In Greece you can be a Muslim but not a Turk. In France, that sent the Statue of Liberty to America, you can only be French. In America you can be what ever you like as long as you salute the American flag and pay your taxes. In the UK you can be ethnic but it is not fashionable to be English. In Indonesia you are Muslim or Hindu but cannot speak out against the state. What a bloody mess. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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alexISS
Villager
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Athens, Greece
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Gosh, what's shocking about it?!? Do you not know that there is a political party in Greece called Rainbow, that represents Greek Slavs? That party got just 6.000 votes (less than half from the Macedonia region) in the 2004 elections, where is that "macedonian" minority? FYROM claims there is a 200,000 "macedonian" minority in Greece, where oh where are they hiding?!?
Another question, do you know why Greece does not accept the name "Macedonia" for Fyrom or "Macedonians" for its citizens? It's because they used that name to promote territorial and historical claims against Greece, I hope you won't ask me to provide proof for that, it was even mentioned in their constitution until the article was ammended after Greek pressure.
So why would the Greek Government issue a "Macedonian" schoolbook? By that time, the term "macedonian" had no ethnic implications, it was used to define the people who lived in the Macedonia region, which includes the south part of today's FYROM. To give an analogy, Palestinians are Arabs who live in Palestine, but they are not descendants of the people who used to live there. So the book was withdrawn because it became evident that an artificial nation creation bearing the name "macedonian" was in the works.
Not so shocking after all |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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it is shocking bc :
1. there was a point were apparently the greek goverment tried to give to some persons in the country the right to be taught in a any damn language they want. even if it didnot work out, it is nevertheless amazing that in the 1920s there were people who could think like that !! it is difficult to find such people even in 2006 
2. shocking bc, they issued the book of the "macedonian language" and they issued it in latin !!!!
3. shocking bc the official greek goverment in order to prove that those people were not bulgarians, it called them macedonians , who had a unique language "the macedonian". which was ofcource rediculous, but nevertheless it was the official position of the greek goverment, and that shows precisely what venizelos always said :
there are no national "rights" , only national interests.
| Quote: |
Another question, do you know why Greece does not accept the name "Macedonia" for Fyrom or "Macedonians" for its citizens? It's because they used that name to promote territorial and historical claims against Greece, |
imo , it is rediculous that greece has territorial fears from its northern neighbour. that country is so small , and has so many internal problems, that the last thing that greece could be afraid was the lost of its territory.
it is also absurd to bring in the "historical claims" as an argument. i ofcource find the those historical claims rediculous, but tell me one country that doesnt use historical stupidities to create a nation ? in that sense all countries are unacceptable.
imo, the reason that greece was afraid of the name, was that that could cause problems with the minority in greece. since the last 15 years it is "in fashion" to divide countries bc of the (usually created) minority problem, greece doesnt want to take the risk. it is the same reason why imo it denies the same thing to the turkish minority.
| Quote: |
| So the book was withdrawn because it became evident that an artificial nation creation bearing the name "macedonian" was in the works. |
now we are talking...
in my understanding it was an attempt from the greek goverment to helenize its subjects. and dont take this wrong. it was a common practise in all the balkans , and turkey. greeks who chose their land instead their ethnicity and decided to stay in bulgaria or sebia after the borders where drawn had to change their sunames to "...ov" or "..ich" respectively. kemal changed the language so much that the averahe turk today cannot read or understand any turkish writer of the pre-1920 period. and that doesnt have to do only with the alphabet.
so i dont find it surprising that greece attempted to do exactly the same .
but the question is : does the fear of the creation of a nation, justifies the rejection to certain people to be taught in the language of their choise ? whatever that language might be called.
| Quote: |
where is that "macedonian" minority?
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i cannot tell you any number if thats what you are asking for. let me ask you another question. i was told this today from a friend (greek historian). why do in some very specific regions in northern greece the traditional songs have only music, and no lyrics ?
i have been dancing for so long and it never crossed my mind that all those bronze instrument dances dont have any lyrics!!! let me save you the surprise...it wasnt always like that
but going back to numbers. if we assume that there is a region with even 200 students that want to be taught in any language they want (vlahika, arvanitika, slav , whatever) ....how would the greek goverment react to that ? even if it is 20 students. how would it react ? it has nothing to do with the existance of minority. it has to do with some specific rights.
and please dont tell me that in turkey it is worse...
i know
but this cannot always be provided as an excuse. |
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alexISS
Villager
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Athens, Greece
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| I'm not going to talk about the past now, I'll leave it for some other time bc it's late and I'm tired. I'll talk about the present, where there is no 'macedonian' minority in Greece, although the ones who claim there is have enough freedom to even create a political party promoting their agenda. Where Nikos Dimou not only can write whatever he wants without being jailed, but be also a widely popular and respected columnist in a progressive and freedom loving society like the greek one. where, on the other hand, minorities face restrictions by the greek state, because our stupid neighbours won't let us treat them as we would like, since they use them to push their own interests. However, there restrictions have no impact on their quality of life, whose high standards are guaranteed by the greek state. |
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1214
Location: Nicosia
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alexISS
Villager
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Athens, Greece
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Interesting indeed, although it may get boring when re-read |
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Dream_Merchant
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Limassol
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| zan wrote: |
In Greece you can be a Muslim but not a Turk. |
Typical Greek barbarism and an example of how Greek extremist nationalists ( which they are in their vast majority ) try to delete any other indigenous cultural and ethnic groups under their oppressive rule.
Courage! |
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Cyprus rules!
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 668
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| Dream_Merchant wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
In Greece you can be a Muslim but not a Turk. |
Typical Greek barbarism and an example of how Greek extremist nationalists ( which they are in their vast majority ) try to delete any other indigenous cultural and ethnic groups under their oppressive rule.
Courage! |
Dream_Merchant, am I wrong in saying that in your recent posts, I've detected a hint of sarcasm....(just a hint that is....).
 |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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just a bit...
besides sarcasm, is trendy lately in the cypriot forums... |
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