 |
| Author |
Message |
Anoush
Village guest
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 4
|
|
| De_La_Soul wrote: |
So much human rights abuses by Turkey but the Turks in this forum complain of this law passed by France. You should be embarrassed and ashamed of yourselves. If you had the balls to admit and campagin as heavily against your country's / 'motherland' countless crimes against humanity, maybe Turkey would be edging closer to the EU. It just shows how nationalistic and willfully blind you people are.
...and if you hate this so-called Armenian Lobby across the world well think about this; if Turkey or the Ottoman Empire had not ethnically cleansed the Armenian people all those years ago and forced them to the many corners of the globe to flee their genocide...then their probably wouldnt be such a big Armenian Lobby in places like the US and France.
...What goes around comes around.
As for 2Fan...can you get more ignorant and obnoxious than a nationalist American Turk???? I dont think so. |
You got that right.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
|
|
| Anoush wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| If historians from all over the world cannot decide whether this thing happened then what right has the law lords and or the politicians have to pass such a law. If this thing goes to court will the law lords not have to call in experts on the subject to give evidence? Upon receiving a balanced report from various experts can this case be be decided to show no reasonable doubt? Not only is it an affront to freedom of speech but unlawful as well. That goes for Turkey too. |
There's a difference between "historian" and genocide scholars.
There's your many "historians" who are on the payroll of the turkish government.
However, there is NO disagreement among genocide scholars that the Armenian Genocide is a FACT. |
Let's see some sources on your allegations. Prove some of the "facts". |
|
| Back to top |
|
Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
|
|
| Anoush wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| If historians from all over the world cannot decide whether this thing happened then what right has the law lords and or the politicians have to pass such a law. If this thing goes to court will the law lords not have to call in experts on the subject to give evidence? Upon receiving a balanced report from various experts can this case be be decided to show no reasonable doubt? Not only is it an affront to freedom of speech but unlawful as well. That goes for Turkey too. |
There's a difference between "historian" and genocide scholars.
There's your many "historians" who are on the payroll of the turkish government.
However, there is NO disagreement among genocide scholars that the Armenian Genocide is a FACT. |
Hi diri how's tricks babaganoush? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
|
|
| Anoush wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| If historians from all over the world cannot decide whether this thing happened then what right has the law lords and or the politicians have to pass such a law. If this thing goes to court will the law lords not have to call in experts on the subject to give evidence? Upon receiving a balanced report from various experts can this case be be decided to show no reasonable doubt? Not only is it an affront to freedom of speech but unlawful as well. That goes for Turkey too. |
There's a difference between "historian" and genocide scholars.
There's your many "historians" who are on the payroll of the turkish government.
However, there is NO disagreement among genocide scholars that the Armenian Genocide is a FACT. |
Hi diri how's tricks babaganoush? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
|
|
| Anoush wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| If historians from all over the world cannot decide whether this thing happened then what right has the law lords and or the politicians have to pass such a law. If this thing goes to court will the law lords not have to call in experts on the subject to give evidence? Upon receiving a balanced report from various experts can this case be be decided to show no reasonable doubt? Not only is it an affront to freedom of speech but unlawful as well. That goes for Turkey too. |
There's a difference between "historian" and genocide scholars.
There's your many "historians" who are on the payroll of the turkish government.
However, there is NO disagreement among genocide scholars that the Armenian Genocide is a FACT. |
You are friggin joke. Who are these "genocide scholars"? People that are paid by the armenian diaspora? Or helped along by the kurdos like yourself? You're nothing but an OC.
I still laugh at all you "experts" on Turks. This site has degenerated to Turk bashing. If you don't like us tell us so. Stop playing games. I promise you that we will not be offended. You can take the EU and put it where the sun doesn't shine. As far as the kurdos are concerned- not 1 single square inch of Turkish territory. Capice diri? Gotveren? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
|
|
| Anoush wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| If historians from all over the world cannot decide whether this thing happened then what right has the law lords and or the politicians have to pass such a law. If this thing goes to court will the law lords not have to call in experts on the subject to give evidence? Upon receiving a balanced report from various experts can this case be be decided to show no reasonable doubt? Not only is it an affront to freedom of speech but unlawful as well. That goes for Turkey too. |
There's a difference between "historian" and genocide scholars.
There's your many "historians" who are on the payroll of the turkish government.
However, there is NO disagreement among genocide scholars that the Armenian Genocide is a FACT. |
Says who? any independent unbiased links to prove your allegations? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
|
|
| Xenos 2Fan wrote: |
| Anoush wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| If historians from all over the world cannot decide whether this thing happened then what right has the law lords and or the politicians have to pass such a law. If this thing goes to court will the law lords not have to call in experts on the subject to give evidence? Upon receiving a balanced report from various experts can this case be be decided to show no reasonable doubt? Not only is it an affront to freedom of speech but unlawful as well. That goes for Turkey too. |
There's a difference between "historian" and genocide scholars.
There's your many "historians" who are on the payroll of the turkish government.
However, there is NO disagreement among genocide scholars that the Armenian Genocide is a FACT. |
You are friggin joke. Who are these "genocide scholars"? People that are paid by the armenian diaspora? Or helped along by the kurdos like yourself? You're nothing but an OC.
I still laugh at all you "experts" on Turks. This site has degenerated to Turk bashing. If you don't like us tell us so. Stop playing games. I promise you that we will not be offended. You can take the EU and put it where the sun doesn't shine. As far as the kurdos are concerned- not 1 single square inch of Turkish territory. Capice diri? Gotveren? |
Couldn't agree more they should just tell Turkey to go away and forget the EU instead they are playing on every issue in the hope that she will give up off her own free will. Or they will use the Greek Cypriot run south to bring the whole process to a halt.....it appears the Greek Cypriots are more that willing to be the escape goat of countries opposing Turkeys EU entry. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Dream_Merchant
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Limassol
|
|
| Viewpoint wrote: |
| Come on Dream your being bloody minded hear no one denies there is a dead body but its the way the person was killed that's the real issue, you say genocide i say war and famine |
First of all the official Turkey 'side' is that no more than a quarter of a million people, mostly pro-Russian irregulars, were killed by war and famine. So there is a problem with the denial of a dead body, in the sense that the official number given by Turkey doesn't reflect the truth.
Second, of course just having a dead body doesn't explicitly mean murder, but such an investigation is done anyway.. after all apart from accident or suicide, there is very little else that can leave behind a dead body. But you are right, I forgot to state that next to the body there is a murder weapon.
| Viewpoint wrote: |
| You have condemned Turkey without a fair investigation or trial which Turkey is open to but it does not serve your purpose to be more balanced and allow them to defend themselves. |
Here you are very wrong. I do not accuse the Turkish Republic of genocide. On the contrary, I do not see how Turkey can be held accountable for something which happened so long ago. What I do accuse Turkey of is something else, it is the denial of the genocide. Why does Turkey so vehemently deny something which to most people seems obvious? It is this stubborness which I can not seem to understand fully.
Why is the Turkish Republic so much protective of the Ottoman Empire? Particularly when the very same Empire was the very anathema of the founders of the Republic!
| Viewpoint wrote: |
| Did you know that the Armenians do not want open their records to the outside world?? go ask the historians why? what have they got to hide. |
No, I don't know that and I seriously doubt it as well. What I do know though is that it is strictly illegal to even raise the issue of the genocide in Turkey in the context of a genocide and that several individuals have been prosecuted under the umbrella of this law. It is an oxymoronic paradox to claim that Turkey wants to open its archives but at the same time bans discussion of the genocide.
Why the orchestration? Why this outright denial? Why the persecution?
What is Turkey afraid of? Armenians? Or possibly the implications to its own national pride? Or maybe the suspicion that things might go very much downhill after such a recognition?
I don't know. But surely, its not because Turkey is the champion of truth and everyone else is lieing through their teeth. Surely not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
|
|
| Anoush wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| brother wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| It is no secret that the French bill to criminalize the denial of the Armenian genocide is an act of retaliation against the Turkey for not withdrawing the article 301 from its penal code that considers it a crime to insult “Turkishness!” Under article 301, someone may be prosecuted in Turkey for insulting "Turkishness," if he claims that the Armenian genocide did happen. Turkey was called repeatedly by the EU to withdraw the article, or at least to give it a more substantial definition. Turkey refuses to do so. Only yesterday, the French PM called Erdogan and asked him to do so, so that this bill doesn’t go through the French parliament. Erdogan refused. It is utter hypocrisy for Turkey now to complain against France, when her own laws are even worst in terms of freedom of expression. What does it mean to insult “Turkishness?” What nonsense! And ...look who is talking! |
So in your mind kifeas two wrongs make a right......Turkey is not pretending to be the cradle of democracy and freedom of speech like France is and if what you are suggesting (which i think is utter rubbish) is true then France is in no way behaving in a European manner and is only gain from this is to alienate the Turkish people. |
Do you mean to say that I talk rubbish? What is the rubbish I said? |
Tell us, brother, are you turkish or jewish?
Do you have a problem with people being thrown in jail for questioning the Shoah? Why is it OK for that, but not any other REAL case of genocide? |
Hi Anoush and welcome to the forum 
Firstly i have no idea what 'shoah' is?????
As for the so called genocide i do not believe that the Ottoman state tried to eliminate the entire Armenian population (which is what genocide means) when they were in the Goverment and a large population of them still exists in Turkey today, my understanding is that after the Armenians decided to side with the russians and killed many Turks/kurds they were retaliated against them by the people who in turn killed them and also many deaths occured when they were being relocated for obvious reasons hence if today the Greek community in the US decided to side with the Iranians and started to systematically kill US citizens i am guessing a retaliation would occur from the US millitary and its citizens who have lost loved ones.
All that said i personally would love to see a proper research done which has Turkish, Armenian and international historians research it to its fullest and i would accept their findings without reservation and if proven that such an incident occured as suggested by the Armenians then we would all owe them an apology.
BTW i am a Turkish Cypriot.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
Dream_Merchant
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Limassol
|
|
| brother wrote: |
| As for the so called genocide i do not believe that the Ottoman state tried to eliminate the entire Armenian population (which is what genocide means) when they were in the Goverment and a large population of them still exists in Turkey |
A large population of them still exist in Turkey? And under what conditions? And how large IS this population? You have to appreciate that most of what is now eastern Anatolia was once Armenia, thus the remnant of a minority which today lives mostly in Istanbul ( due to several reasons, one being the seat of the Patriarchate ) can hardly qualify for proving anything from what you suggest.
Brother, you said it yourself. Many Armenians were at the time not only in the government but also in many other key positions in the Ottoman Empire. And this was a threat which the then Turkish authorities could not find acceptable. Why, the very first people to be rounded up and killed, on April 24 1915, were these very same political figures, intellectuals and anyone who had any leadership qualities. This amounted to over 200,000 deaths. After that the rest of the population was rounded up and led into the deserts of Syria and Iraq, under the pretext of 'relocation', while they were denied any food or water and at the same time hounded by organised groups of soldiers and mercenaries which took their sport out of systematic and random killings, rapings and thefts to their own whims.
By the time these helpless and leaderless groups reached their 'final destinations', which were nothing but desert locales, they were literally decimated. It was only through the kindness of individuals to their plight that any of them were saved.
During the outbreak of World War I, many Armenians did indeed side with the Russians. This is because the Russians promised us something which the international community under the influence of the Turkish regime had failed to do. Guarantee our continued survival within our own independant country. And I bet they killed many Turks, as many Russians did as well. But if you consider that the genocide was a 'reprisal', then I dare say that it was one of the biggest overexaggerations in the history of mankind!
In any case you are misleading everyone with your assumptions. Tell me of a single Armenian family that is really happy in Turkey! I would very much like to talk with such people, I am afraid though you will have a very hard time procuring the evidence for your statement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
|
|
| Dream_Merchant wrote: |
| brother wrote: |
| As for the so called genocide i do not believe that the Ottoman state tried to eliminate the entire Armenian population (which is what genocide means) when they were in the Goverment and a large population of them still exists in Turkey |
A large population of them still exist in Turkey? And under what conditions? And how large IS this population? You have to appreciate that most of what is now eastern Anatolia was once Armenia, thus the remnant of a minority which today lives mostly in Istanbul ( due to several reasons, one being the seat of the Patriarchate ) can hardly qualify for proving anything from what you suggest.
Brother, you said it yourself. Many Armenians were at the time not only in the government but also in many other key positions in the Ottoman Empire. And this was a threat which the then Turkish authorities could not find acceptable. Why, the very first people to be rounded up and killed, on April 24 1915, were these very same political figures, intellectuals and anyone who had any leadership qualities. This amounted to over 200,000 deaths. After that the rest of the population was rounded up and led into the deserts of Syria and Iraq, under the pretext of 'relocation', while they were denied any food or water and at the same time hounded by organised groups of soldiers and mercenaries which took their sport out of systematic and random killings, rapings and thefts to their own whims.
By the time these helpless and leaderless groups reached their 'final destinations', which were nothing but desert locales, they were literally decimated. It was only through the kindness of individuals to their plight that any of them were saved.
During the outbreak of World War I, many Armenians did indeed side with the Russians. This is because the Russians promised us something which the international community under the influence of the Turkish regime had failed to do. Guarantee our continued survival within our own independant country. And I bet they killed many Turks, as many Russians did as well. But if you consider that the genocide was a 'reprisal', then I dare say that it was one of the biggest overexaggerations in the history of mankind!
In any case you are misleading everyone with your assumptions. Tell me of a single Armenian family that is really happy in Turkey! I would very much like to talk with such people, I am afraid though you will have a very hard time procuring the evidence for your statement. |
One of these Armenian famalies has now married into my family to my first cousin and they had a baby son recently, we have discused this a few times and they believe what most Turks suggest, you figure it out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Dream_Merchant
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Limassol
|
|
| brother wrote: |
| One of these Armenian famalies has now married into my family to my first cousin and they had a baby son recently, we have discused this a few times and they believe what most Turks suggest, you figure it out. |
I can give you my IRC handle or my MSN address, as I said, I would like to talk to these people if possible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
|
|
| I will ask her if she is up for it OK |
|
| Back to top |
|
cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5357
Location: National Forest, England
|
|
I think the modern Turkish attitude towards Armenians was aptly demonstrated during a recent programme on the BBC. 'Bargain Hunt' maestro David Dickinson was tracing his families roots on the programme Who Do You Think You Are. He is of Armenia Turkish descent and was tracing his families roots in Istanbul. He had to be extremely careful where he went to find such information and was only able to pursue his task through the Armenian community that still lives there. He managed to find one of his only living descendants in Turkey who had changed their name from its original Armenian sound to sound more Turkish (to escape persecution).
This programme was not made with an agenda, it was not designed to brainwash us gullible Western Europeans into hating Turkey. It was simply tracing a family history. What was quite disturbing was when he visited his families old house in Istanbul and a rowdy crowd arrived and essentially intimidated him out of the neighbourhood, that was quite shocking to watch.
I'm not saying that all Turks feel this way, but the attitude evidenced during this thread has really made me think twice about some people and how really open they are to new ideas beyond their own beliefs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
|
|
| Dream_Merchant wrote: |
Many historians are either bribed or coerced by Turkey or pro-Turkish lobbyists in fighting fiercely for the denial of the genocide. That is something I will stand by and I think its obvious as Turkey spends quite a bit in maintaining this propaganda. |
You claim that Justin McCarthy, Kemal Karpat, Dennis Hupchik, Robert Olson, Ali Eminov, Heath Lowry all of whom are accreditted historians have been bribed by the Turkish government? Hell the Turkish government cannot pay for hospitals, struggles in depts, the last thing on their mind is how to bribe historians.
On the one hand you question accreditted historians with history degrees,on the other hand you turn a blind eye to Balakian, the biggest proponent of this Armenian genocide allegation, one of whose presentations I had the misfortune to attend, despite the fact that he is not even a historian, he is an English professor.
If anything Turkey is not doing enough to counteract Armenian propaganda. There was a documentary a few months ago on CBS on what you refer to as a genocide solely against Armenians, and guess who the documentary was funded by? Most of them had -ian in their last names. And this was presented to the Amerian public as an unbiased documentary, outrageous! It goes without saying that the documentary did not tell the whole truth, only part of it.
| Quote: |
| Of course, as an Armenian, I will pursue my side of the story, in so far as I know Turkey will pursue its side of the story, and so we shall find the truth, which is usually somewhere between the two sides. |
That is the only way for the truth to prevail in the end. Banning and stifling debate is counterproductive. You may rest assured, that we will not let all the muslims who had died during those turbulent times to be buried in history and forgotten.
| Quote: |
Turkey DOES have serious problems in accepting this crime. I am not amazed nor do I dream of Turkey as is of really accepting anything. Not as long as laws are made to safeguard "Turkishness" and not as long as the military with its warped Kemalist ideals plays the game of chess with the politicians.
|
Turks have every right to defend their truth and stand up their ground against what they believe is a grossly unfair accusations against them, especially in light of the fact that 5.5 million Ottoman subjects (Turks, Kurds, CHerkess) have lost their lives as a result of massacre, starvation and disease between the GReek war of independence and WW1, 500,000 of them because of the Armenian treason on the eastern front. Why is that only Armenian deaths merit to be called Genocide, and all the Moslems deaths are ignored?
| Quote: |
But.. why is Turkey so much pissed off?
You know.. there is a Greek saying " A clean sky is not afraid of lightning ". So why all the thunderclouds?
|
Why are Armenians lobbying parliaments around the world to make refusal to acknowledge Armenian deaths as Genocide - punishable by law? Why does Armenia consistently refuse to establish an international comission of accreditted historians, that will once and for all clear this up? Why does Armenia feel the need to arrest Turkish scholars researching on Armenian archives, and keep them in maximum security prisons? Maybe the your skies are not that clear as well. You guys have invested so much into this myth that you were the noble victims, that you consider anything that may prove othewise, an enormous threat. Sooner or later all these myths will come shattering to the grounds.
No matter how much you lobby the French parliament, it is simply not qualified to make a decission on history, and it cannot change history through a mere voting excercise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
 
 
Link Partners
3400 Attacks blocked
|
Register 
Log in 
Album 
Home