| Author |
Message |
boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
|
|
We all know pretty well why the Greek Cypriot voted down the Annan plan...I would like to know, as to why the Turkish Cypriot voted yes for the plan, but mostly, even though they voted yes, would like to know what scares them the most about the Annan plan.
Also if everyones human rights are respected would the Turkish Cypriot co-exist with the Greek Cypriot...majority rules scenario....Ok I know that they will loose balance of power, but would they trust the EU to look after them? |
|
| Back to top |
|
cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5357
Location: National Forest, England
|
|
| You need to read Alexandros Lordos' survey, it asks the same questions you're asking. Search for him in the members list and click on his website, it's all there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
murtaza
Villager
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 21
|
|
| And why should they trust EU? EU didnt hold their promise because of Greek Cypriot, so why should they think EU may protect them? |
|
| Back to top |
|
magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 630
Location: NYC
|
|
| THey had nothing to lose and everything to gain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
gabs
Villager
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 98
|
|
to my mind nothing scared the Turkish Cypriots re the plan.
why they voted yes?
some voted for the Eu passport.
some voted tactically in the hope that Greek Cypriot would vote no. (france beware)
some voted coz they wanted to consolidate their gains.
bigger surprise to me was the number of Greek Cypriot yes votes.
trust the eu to look after them? yeah right, like they did with post annan promises................................lol lol lol  |
|
| Back to top |
|
erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
|
|
| magikthrill wrote: |
| THey had nothing to lose and everything to gain. |
I am sorry Magik but this assertion is no more credible that the counter claim that Greek Cypriot voted no because they do not want any settlement short of Greek Cypriot and only Greek Cypriot run and controlled unitied Cyprus.
Turkish Cypriot had things to lose. We can argue as to if they had more or less to lose than Greek Cypriot and more or less to gain. But to claim they had nothing to lose and everything to gain in the black and white way you do above is just not realisitic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 630
Location: NYC
|
|
| what exactly did the Turkish Cypriots had to lose erol? |
|
| Back to top |
|
boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
|
|
| erolz wrote: |
| magikthrill wrote: |
| THey had nothing to lose and everything to gain. |
I am sorry Magik but this assertion is no more credible that the counter claim that Greek Cypriot voted no because they do not want any settlement short of Greek Cypriot and only Greek Cypriot run and controlled unitied Cyprus.
Turkish Cypriot had things to lose. We can argue as to if they had more or less to lose than Greek Cypriot and more or less to gain. But to claim they had nothing to lose and everything to gain in the black and white way you do above is just not realisitic. |
Can you please give some examples off the losses and gains of the Turkish Cypriot? |
|
| Back to top |
|
erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
|
|
| magikthrill wrote: |
| what exactly did the Turkish Cypriots had to lose erol? |
Something like 30,000+ Turkish Cypriot would have 'immediately' lost their homes in those areas that were to be put under the control of Greek Cypriot component state.
Other would have lost them in the Turkish Cypriot component state areas or parts of them.
We would have lost considerable teritory vs what we currently control
We would have lost total 'sovreignty' of the are we were to remain in control of as a consitutent state - and would have had a 'central federal' body gain sovreignty in some areas. Even if you claim we do not have tpotal sovreingty but actualy control from Turkey it is still a loss to most Turkish Cypriot to lose control by turkey and have it repalced by control from Greek Cypriot.
We risked the the very real possibility that the 'protections' put in places re ensuring that the Turkish Cypriot component state does not have more than 33% no Turkish Cypriot in it being overturned in courts like the ECHR - thus risking the only protection we had of some form of poltical equality or control of our own consituent state.
We risked the potential that after all restricitons on the ownership of property were removed (after 18 years) that the economicaly more powerful Greek Cypriot community would take economic control of the Turkish Cypriot component state.
We risked the potential that desoite what agreements were made a numericaly larger Greek Cypriot community would use force and illegal means to take what was justly ours under these agreements.
We risked loosing the effective protection of the Turkish army .
Yes on balance more Turkish Cypriot considered these risk and loses 'acceptable' or 'worth the risk' - because more vote for the plan than voted against it. But to make out we had NOTHING to lose is just propaganda as far as I am concerned. |
|
| Back to top |
|
magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 630
Location: NYC
|
|
| Quote: |
Something like 30,000+ Turkish Cypriot would have 'immediately' lost their homes in those areas that were to be put under the control of Greek Cypriot component state.
|
Are you sure this number is correct or are you including turkish settlers as part of Turkish Cypriot. can you also define "immediately"
| Quote: |
Other would have lost them in the Turkish Cypriot component state areas or parts of them.
|
So these homes... they wouldnt have happened to belong to Greek Cypriots in the past would they?
| Quote: |
We would have lost considerable teritory vs what we currently control
We would have lost total 'sovreignty' of the are we were to remain in control of as a consitutent state - and would have had a 'central federal' body gain sovreignty in some areas. Even if you claim we do not have tpotal sovreingty but actualy control from Turkey it is still a loss to most Turkish Cypriot to lose control by turkey and have it repalced by control from Greek Cypriot.
|
How exactly would Turkish Cypriots be controlled by Greek Cypriots as per Annan Plan? Also sovereignty for Turkish Cypriots is supposed to increase and enhance their wellbeing. However without any economic development this is not possible. So the very meaning of sovereignty is quite null until the wellbeing of Turkish Cypriots is enhanced IMO.
| Quote: |
We risked the the very real possibility that the 'protections' put in places re ensuring that the Turkish Cypriot component state does not have more than 33% no Turkish Cypriot in it being overturned in courts like the ECHR - thus risking the only protection we had of some form of poltical equality or control of our own consituent state.
|
Um I thought if the plan ensured something then there was no way to send any complaints to the ECHR. Wasn't the Republic of Cyprus president supposed to sign such an agreement if the A-Plan were passed? Correct me if I'm wrong here.
| Quote: |
We risked the potential that after all restricitons on the ownership of property were removed (after 18 years) that the economicaly more powerful Greek Cypriot community would take economic control of the Turkish Cypriot component state.
|
I think we both know that these restrictions continued to last after 18 years. If I'm not mistaken the A-Plan did not allowed Greek Cypriot economic activity in the north and the amount of propery that could be owned by the Greek Cypriots in the northern part of their country was restricted. Again correct me if I'm wrong here.
| Quote: |
We risked the potential that desoite what agreements were made a numericaly larger Greek Cypriot community would use force and illegal means to take what was justly ours under these agreements.
|
so when you run out of slightly coherant arguments you turn to this one? Fair enough.
| Quote: |
We risked loosing the effective protection of the Turkish army .
|
I thought the presence of this foreign army remained within the boundaries of a supposedly independent state, non?
| Quote: |
Yes on balance more Turkish Cypriot considered these risk and loses 'acceptable' or 'worth the risk' - because more vote for the plan than voted against it. But to make out we had NOTHING to lose is just propaganda as far as I am concerned. |
You are right. Turkish Cypriots did have something to lose. The fact that the Greek Cypriots might overturn the precious A-Plan. That's what I understood from you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
|
|
Look I am not an expert on the details of the Annan plan and never have been or claimed to be, as I have admitted here in the past and was reluctant to enter into this thread on that basis.
My basic point was that claims that 'Turkish Cypriot had NOTHING to lose or were required to take NO RISK or make ANY concessions' such as you earlier one line post made out are simplistic and unrealistic 'propaganda' and comparable to claims that Greek Cypriot voted no because they do not want a settlement. Do you really believe that we were required to make NO concessions at all no compromise at all and simply gained everything we wanted in all reagrds under the Annan plan all at the expense of Greek Cypriot who gained nothing that they wanted at all? If so I am afraid imo you views are the result of 'propaganda' and not reality. First and foremost it is the balck and white absolutism of your original post in this thread that I am questioning. The specficic details are all secondary to me.
| magikthrill wrote: |
Are you sure this number is correct or are you including turkish settlers as part of Turkish Cypriot. can you also define "immediately" |
No I am not sure this number is correct. I did not study the Annan plan in detail and those parts that I did I have largely forgotten and have no desire to do so now. For me what has always reamined more important that the details of any agreement is the 'will' on each side to make the agreement work regardless of the details.
My understanding is that there would have been 'immediate' (within the first year) redrawinf of boundries of the Turkish Cypriot component state vs the Republic of Northern Cyprus today with signficant areas going to the Greek Cypriot component state and full return of Greek Cypriot refugess in these areas. I think the numbers were around 40,000 Greek Cypriot reutning and 30,000 Turkish Cypriot leaving. If I am wrong I am sure someone (Alexandros?) with a real detailed knowledge and memory of the plan will correct me.
| magikthrill wrote: |
So these homes... they wouldnt have happened to belong to Greek Cypriots in the past would they? |
If the question is what did Turkish Cypriot have to lose vs what is rightfully (as you define it) theirs under tha Annan plan this distinction may have some relevance. I understood the question to be what did Turkish Cypriot have to lose under the Anann plan vs what they control today reagrdless of if they have a right to control it or not.
| magikthrill wrote: |
How exactly would Turkish Cypriots be controlled by Greek Cypriots as per Annan Plan? Also sovereignty for Turkish Cypriots is supposed to increase and enhance their wellbeing. However without any economic development this is not possible. So the very meaning of sovereignty is quite null until the wellbeing of Turkish Cypriots is enhanced IMO. |
As it stands today we have a sovreign and elected Turkish Cypriot government with no requirment to 'work in partnership' with Greek Cypriot communiy or to have Greek Cypriot representation in our political bodies at all. Under the Annan plan we lose these things. Again the question as I understand it is not should we have ever had these things but if signing them away represents a loss, regardless of if we should have - we have them now right or worng. We would not have them under the Annan plan.
| magikthrill wrote: |
Um I thought if the plan ensured something then there was no way to send any complaints to the ECHR. Wasn't the Republic of Cyprus president supposed to sign such an agreement if the A-Plan were passed? Correct me if I'm wrong here. |
No this was very unclear. Without specfic agreement from all 25 EU members that these 'abrogations' to normal EU practice we primary EU law there was a very real risk that the protections for the Turkish Cypriot component state were not worth the paper they were written on.
| magikthrill wrote: |
I think we both know that these restrictions continued to last after 18 years. If I'm not mistaken the A-Plan did not allowed Greek Cypriot economic activity in the north and the amount of propery that could be owned by the Greek Cypriots in the northern part of their country was restricted. Again correct me if I'm wrong here. |
I know nothing of the sort and the very implication that I am with intent saying something I know not to be true is quite personaly insulting to me. My understanding re this 18 years comes directly from a post by Alexandros (whom I consider an 'expert' on the plans details) posted on this very forum in the last few days.
http://www.talkcyprus.org/viewtopic.php?p=4504#4504
So actually it is after 15 years not 18. Care to tell me now 'what I know'?
| magikthrill wrote: |
so when you run out of slightly coherant arguments you turn to this one? Fair enough. |
Have I said I think this is a large risk? No I have not. The fact remains that a numericaly larger Greek Cypriot community did use illegal violence against the smaller Turkish Cypriot community in the past. Of course this is not the whole story but it is a truth none the less. Yes I beleive the risks of this happening again in the same way are small but they are risks none the less vs the senario we have now where a larger Greek Cypriot community simply can not use illegal violence against us.
| magikthrill wrote: |
I thought the presence of this foreign army remained within the boundaries of a supposedly independent state, non? |
I do not know what you mean?
| magikthrill wrote: |
You are right. Turkish Cypriots did have something to lose. The fact that the Greek Cypriots might overturn the precious A-Plan. That's what I understood from you. |
If you consider accepting a plan that has protections for your communites rights that may end up being not worth the paper they are written on as being a plan where Turkish Cypriot 'had NOTHING to lose' then there is little more I can to the discussion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
|
|
I am probably even less an expert than erolz on the Annan Plan,but what amazed me was the high "yes" vote in those parts like yeshilirmak(Limnidi?) and Guzelyurt (Omorfo?) where large number of Turkish Cypriots were to be displaced. I also thought the settlers would have voted "no" overwhelmingly,as the Annan Plan was probably not good news for them,but there were sweeteners I guess that I am not aware of.
IMO,the biggest gain for Turkish Cypriots was to have their state recognised by the whole world. After years of living in an open prison,Turkish Cypriots would have the political and formal recognision they craved so much. I thought it would have been a great act of generosity on the part of Greek Cypriots had they agreed to the A-plan. I also think it would have been the only way out of the present mess.EU or no EU Pressure,every passing year now will entrench the partition of the island,and make a unification of any kind much more difficult. I was praying that the Greek Cypriots would vote yes,Denktash was praying for a no vote.His prayers were answered.Cyprus and cypriots lost that battle.We now have to look to the battles that lay ahead.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
|
|
The problem is that both Cypriots communities crave for different wants.
They need to be more nationalistic towards Cyprus and a solution will be found.
What city are you from...I am from Melbourne |
|
| Back to top |
|
erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
|
|
| boomerang wrote: |
The problem is that both Cypriots communities crave for different wants.
They need to be more nationalistic towards Cyprus and a solution will be found. |
Here I agree with you. There has never been a serious desire or effort on the part of Cypriots to build a Cypriot nation imo. Our best chance at acheiving this goal was in 1960 and the simple fact is we blew it big time. At worst Greek Cypriot were trying to incorpaorate Cyprus into the Greek nation and at best (imo) were trying to build a Greek Cypriot nation that had a Turkish Cypriot minority living within it. Turkish Cypriot at worst were trying to achieve partition of Cyprus into two nations and at best were bent on resisting attempts to build a Greek Cypriot nation in Cyprus above all other considerations. The task now of building a Cypriot nation after everything that has happend since 1960 is massively more difficult imo  |
|
| Back to top |
|
Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
|
|
Boomerang,hello mate,I am from Sydney.Well,these days I spend most of my time in the Blue Mountains,have you been here?Probably heard of Katoomba?
I guess what you are saying is we should feel less Greek or Turkish and more Cypriot?That i would agree with.As long as we don't then turn against the world in our nationalism,which is not likely given our history.
I just read and posted a message at What is a Cypriot? thread.Check it out,it's fun.
And,if you know any such forum or organisation in Oz working to improve trust between Cypriots send me a PM.I have never got a PM but I am sure I can work out how to get it,I am new to computing you see.
caio,mate |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Register 
Log in 
Album 
Home 
