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Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1409
Location: Australia
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You are right Erol, you summed up the situation very well.
I think Turkey lost a great opportunity in 1974.She should have forced the Cypriots to go back and give the 1960 constitution another go.
The situation seems hopeless (more so to me now that I have discovered these forums)sometimes but we cann't give up,can we?That would mean victory by the forces of darkness,and imperialism.But with people like you putting their hearts and souls into it at ground zero,maybe all is not lost.Cheers,mate. |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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| erolz wrote: |
| boomerang wrote: |
The problem is that both Cypriots communities crave for different wants.
They need to be more nationalistic towards Cyprus and a solution will be found. |
Here I agree with you. There has never been a serious desire or effort on the part of Cypriots to build a Cypriot nation imo. Our best chance at acheiving this goal was in 1960 and the simple fact is we blew it big time. At worst Greek Cypriot were trying to incorpaorate Cyprus into the Greek nation and at best (imo) were trying to build a Greek Cypriot nation that had a Turkish Cypriot minority living within it. Turkish Cypriot at worst were trying to achieve partition of Cyprus into two nations and at best were bent on resisting attempts to build a Greek Cypriot nation in Cyprus above all other considerations. The task now of building a Cypriot nation after everything that has happend since 1960 is massively more difficult imo  |
Finally an agreement...hahahaha
I do not think it's hard...We need more people to start think as Cypriots and leave their nationalistic bullshit with their respective motherlands...
Let them sort out their own problems, instead of using us as expendable pawns.
IMO the Greek Cypriot have moved on and accepted that Cyprus is a soveriegn country...the Turkish Cypriot need to accept the same....and not wanting Turkey guarantor powers, which the Greek Cypriot will never accept...A major stambling block in the negotiations...One step at the time solution. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I am probably even less an expert than erolz on the Annan Plan,but what amazed me was the high "yes" vote in those parts like yeshilirmak(Limnidi?) and Guzelyurt (Omorfo?) where large number of Turkish Cypriots were to be displaced. I also thought the settlers would have voted "no" overwhelmingly,as the Annan Plan was probably not good news for them,but there were sweeteners I guess that I am not aware of.
IMO,the biggest gain for Turkish Cypriots was to have their state recognised by the whole world. After years of living in an open prison,Turkish Cypriots would have the political and formal recognision they craved so much. I thought it would have been a great act of generosity on the part of Greek Cypriots had they agreed to the A-plan. I also think it would have been the only way out of the present mess.EU or no EU Pressure,every passing year now will entrench the partition of the island,and make a unification of any kind much more difficult. I was praying that the Greek Cypriots would vote yes,Denktash was praying for a no vote.His prayers were answered.Cyprus and cypriots lost that battle.We now have to look to the battles that lay ahead.  |
Birkibrisli, you made an assertion that says a lot by itself and describes the true situation in one sentence. It would indeed have been a great act of generosity on the part of the Greek Cypriots, had they agreed to the A-plan. I would add here that under any/all circumstances and under any future solution scenario, the Greek Cypriots will still be the side that will give out the most and it will still be an act of generosity. Even with the changes that Papadopoullos had recently conveyed verbally to the UN and to Talat and even if all of them are accepted entirely, still the emerging solution will amount to an act of generosity on the part of the Greek Cypriot side. Yet, Talat rushed to discredit them and call them a “non-starter,” presumably after receiving relevant orders from Ankara.
Unfortunately, the last A-plan amounted to a way too much of an act of generosity, beyond the level and ability of the Greek Cypriots to possibly absorb and digest and that is why it was rejected so heavily. |
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brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
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Hi BirKibrisli and welcome to the forum  |
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Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1409
Location: Australia
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Thanks ,Brother?
It is nice to find you here |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| boomerang wrote: |
IMO the Greek Cypriot have moved on and accepted that Cyprus is a soveriegn country...the Turkish Cypriot need to accept the same....and not wanting Turkey guarantor powers, which the Greek Cypriot will never accept...A major stambling block in the negotiations...One step at the time solution. |
There is no doubt that to all intense and purposes most Greek Cypriot have 'moved on' from Enosis and accept that Cyprus should remain an independent state. However there is still much suspicion and fear in Turkish Cypriot minds that what Greek Cypriot want and believe in is a Greek Cypriot Cypriot nation and not just a Cypriot nation. A Greek Cypriot nation where Turkish Cypriot live as a political minority within their own homeland and totaly at the mercy of Greek Cypriot who consider them more 'immigrants' than 'locals' or cypriots and despite the fact the Cyprus as an independent sorvreign nation was founded on principles of partnership of the two communites. In short we fear being a disenfranchised group within a country we consider out homeland. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| erolz wrote: |
In short we fear being a disenfranchised group within a country we consider out homeland.
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You summed it up pretty well, Erol. How else could we feel when we still hear "Cyprus is Greek" in a stupid soccer game? |
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antonis
Villager
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 70
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| Mete wrote: |
| erolz wrote: |
In short we fear being a disenfranchised group within a country we consider out homeland.
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You summed it up pretty well, Erol. How else could we feel when we still hear "Cyprus is Greek" in a stupid soccer game? |
If it's a stupid soccer game then you shouldn't take it seriously. In soccer games you hear whatever you want.
I think the power sharing issue is Turkish Cypriot psychological barrier that one way or another you'll have to get over. You have to invest some hope in the future structure and move forward. The past is gone, people that want you to live in the 1960s and remind you of all the past without looking into the future definitely do not want reunification.
The Annan plan asked for Greek Cypriots to put way too much hope for the future which was uncertain and maintained security and other issues at the 1960 levels, which was not acceptable to Greek Cypriots. Perhaps the phrase "Turkish Cypriots gain everything from day 1, Greek Cypriots will have to wait years and years", and "we buy hope in return for Turkey's good will to implement the plan" captures a dogmatic approach. But an approach that is nonetheless true, and is based on the same past experiences.
Imagine for instance, that the representation of the Turkish Cypriots in the UCR would be gradual, and in 19 years power sharing would reach the levels of the Annan plan. How would you feel about that? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| antonis wrote: |
| I think the power sharing issue is Turkish Cypriot psychological barrier that one way or another you'll have to get over. You have to invest some hope in the future structure and move forward. The past is gone, people that want you to live in the 1960s and remind you of all the past without looking into the future definitely do not want reunification. |
Do you mean that Turkish Cypriots should just 'hope and trust' that a numercially larger Greek Cypriot population would not ever do anything (pass legislation) that would ahrm and be against the interests of the Turkish Cypriot community in a unitary state model? That we should not seek the protections of some form of poltical equality? Can you understand why our perception of the need for such protections for our community are directly related to what happened in the 60's?
Could one not argue this absolute refusal to share any power equally with a numerically smaller community by Greek Cypriots is their "psychological barrier " and that one day they must 'get over it'?
| antonis wrote: |
The Annan plan asked for Greek Cypriots to put way too much hope for the future which was uncertain and maintained security and other issues at the 1960 levels, which was not acceptable to Greek Cypriots. Perhaps the phrase "Turkish Cypriots gain everything from day 1, Greek Cypriots will have to wait years and years", and "we buy hope in return for Turkey's good will to implement the plan" captures a dogmatic approach. But an approach that is nonetheless true, and is based on the same past experiences. |
That's not entirely true is it? There were some benefits for Greek Cypriot from 'day one' were there not?
| antonis wrote: |
Imagine for instance, that the representation of the Turkish Cypriots in the UCR would be gradual, and in 19 years power sharing would reach the levels of the Annan plan. How would you feel about that? |
It would make no sense for 'protections' to be 'phased in' though. 'Protections' to be worth anything need to be there from day one, with the hope that with good will on both sides their need and the perception fo the need for them dimishes over time. |
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antonis
Villager
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 70
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| Quote: |
| Do you mean that Turkish Cypriots should just 'hope and trust' that a numercially larger Greek Cypriot population would not ever do anything (pass legislation) that would ahrm and be against the interests of the Turkish Cypriot community in a unitary state model? |
No, there should be safeguards, I never said there shouldn't be any safeguards. However, there is a psychological barrier, a tendency to dogmatically interpret things. The Greek Cypriot psychological barrier is the fact that a portion of the occupying army and the settlers have "come to stay", which causes much uneasiness and fear amongst Greek Cypriots. Not understanding this is the same as a Greek Cypriot not understanding the interpretation of political equality as 50-50 on every stage of the decision (non)-making. Which is something I don't understand either.
| Quote: |
| Can you understand why our perception of the need for such protections for our community are directly related to what happened in the 60's? |
Can you understand the need for complete demilitarization of the island and the removal of as many settlers as possible, and that this protective measure is directly related to what happened in 1974?
| Quote: |
| Could one not argue this absolute refusal to share any power equally with a numerically smaller community by Greek Cypriots is their "psychological barrier " and that one day they must 'get over it'? |
Similarly, could one not argue that the absolute refusal of the Turkish Cypriot and T side to discuss complete demilitarization of the island and removal of all guarantees by foreign powers is their "psychological barrier " and that one day they must 'get over it'? Why doesn't the A plan impose this, the way it imposes political equality to an extend that makes the system messy?
| Quote: |
| There were some benefits for Greek Cypriot from 'day one' were there not? |
List them, given that the Republic of Cyprus would become a member of the EU in a weeks' time. _Tangible_ benefits, not things that would happen in a decade. Look Erol, let's face it. The plan was designed in a way that it was much too difficult to convince a Greek Cypriot to say yes rather than to convince a Turkish Cypriot to do the same. It was a scam, a setup.
| Quote: |
| It would make no sense for 'protections' to be 'phased in' though. 'Protections' to be worth anything need to be there from day one, with the hope that with good will on both sides their need and the perception fo the need for them dimishes over time. |
So what kind of protection do the Greek Cypriots get from day 1? Is the army going to be gone before the implementation of the plan? Syria removed 14000 soldiers in 1 month. Turkey can remove the occupying army in 4 months max, why not?
So let me give you a simple example. Your side has obviously not had enough treatise in international relationships in the past three decades, in fact it is so following the Turkish foreign policy that it's a joke, and if you get 50% of the power immediately then the Turkish foreign policy will be imposed on Cyprus. Suppose in the plan, the Cyprus federal gvmt would be entirely Greek Cypriot until Turkish Cypriots would be trained to be fit to take part in EU affairs etc, and suppose Annan called this period a good 15 years. Would that be OK for you? |
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detailer
Senior Villager
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 473
Location: UK
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| antonis wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Do you mean that Turkish Cypriots should just 'hope and trust' that a numercially larger Greek Cypriot population would not ever do anything (pass legislation) that would ahrm and be against the interests of the Turkish Cypriot community in a unitary state model? |
No, there should be safeguards, I never said there shouldn't be any safeguards. However, there is a psychological barrier, a tendency to dogmatically interpret things. The Greek Cypriot psychological barrier is the fact that a portion of the occupying army and the settlers have "come to stay", which causes much uneasiness and fear amongst Greek Cypriots. Not understanding this is the same as a Greek Cypriot not understanding the interpretation of political equality as 50-50 on every stage of the decision (non)-making. Which is something I don't understand either.
| Quote: |
| Can you understand why our perception of the need for such protections for our community are directly related to what happened in the 60's? |
Can you understand the need for complete demilitarization of the island and the removal of as many settlers as possible, and that this protective measure is directly related to what happened in 1974?
| Quote: |
| Could one not argue this absolute refusal to share any power equally with a numerically smaller community by Greek Cypriots is their "psychological barrier " and that one day they must 'get over it'? |
Similarly, could one not argue that the absolute refusal of the Turkish Cypriot and T side to discuss complete demilitarization of the island and removal of all guarantees by foreign powers is their "psychological barrier " and that one day they must 'get over it'? Why doesn't the A plan impose this, the way it imposes political equality to an extend that makes the system messy?
| Quote: |
| There were some benefits for Greek Cypriot from 'day one' were there not? |
List them, given that the Republic of Cyprus would become a member of the EU in a weeks' time. _Tangible_ benefits, not things that would happen in a decade. Look Erol, let's face it. The plan was designed in a way that it was much too difficult to convince a Greek Cypriot to say yes rather than to convince a Turkish Cypriot to do the same. It was a scam, a setup.
| Quote: |
| It would make no sense for 'protections' to be 'phased in' though. 'Protections' to be worth anything need to be there from day one, with the hope that with good will on both sides their need and the perception fo the need for them dimishes over time. |
So what kind of protection do the Greek Cypriots get from day 1? Is the army going to be gone before the implementation of the plan? Syria removed 14000 soldiers in 1 month. Turkey can remove the occupying army in 4 months max, why not?
So let me give you a simple example. Your side has obviously not had enough treatise in international relationships in the past three decades, in fact it is so following the Turkish foreign policy that it's a joke, and if you get 50% of the power immediately then the Turkish foreign policy will be imposed on Cyprus. Suppose in the plan, the Cyprus federal gvmt would be entirely Greek Cypriot until Turkish Cypriots would be trained to be fit to take part in EU affairs etc, and suppose Annan called this period a good 15 years. Would that be OK for you? |
Clever points... |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| antonis wrote: |
| Not understanding this is the same as a Greek Cypriot not understanding the interpretation of political equality as 50-50 on every stage of the decision (non)-making. Which is something I don't understand either. |
My personal view is we (Turkish Cypriots) do not need or require political equality on everything. Where we do require it is on decsions that affect the two communites differently. To me it is perfectly reasonable to excpect such decsions to require seperate consent from each community. That is what political equality means to me and without it the Turkish Cypriot community will just be at the mercy of the Greek Cypriot community and not have an effective voice or say in decsions that affect their lives in their own homeland.
| antonis wrote: |
Can you understand the need for complete demilitarization of the island and the removal of as many settlers as possible, and that this protective measure is directly related to what happened in 1974? |
I would be happy to see complete demilitrisation of Cyprus. I would not like to see a solution forcing 'settlers' out of Cyprus against their will. Out of Greek Cypriot properties is one thing but not out of cyprus.
| antonis wrote: |
Similarly, could one not argue that the absolute refusal of the Turkish Cypriot and T side to discuss complete demilitarization of the island and removal of all guarantees by foreign powers is their "psychological barrier " and that one day they must 'get over it'? Why doesn't the A plan impose this, the way it imposes political equality to an extend that makes the system messy? |
I do not think we refuse to discuss demiltirisation. Certainly we would want the demilitrisation to be be staged over time, as our confidence in our physical security increases after a solution thus our need for physical military decreases too. Any plan that required the complete removal of all Turkish troops from day one, without any staged withdrawl would require a lot of trust from the Turkish Cypriot community in the plan.
The issue of removal of all guarantees from external powers it a lot harder for us to come to terms with than withdrawal of troops I believe. At the end of the day from a Turkish Cypriot perspecticve it was Turkey's rights of intervention under the existing treaty of guarantee that was the only measure that actually protected us and our rights. Where the consitution of Republic of Cyprus failed, the supreme court of Republic of Cyprus failed, the UN failed , Turkish intervention was the only effective protection of our community and our rights. I can totaly uderstand why Greek Cypriot fear any such rights in a future solution. I am not sure how we meet Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot needs in this regard? Maybe some form of external intervention rights, but heavily restricted as to under what circumsatnces these rights can be exercised and specfic limits on which areas in Cyprus they can excersised over? I do not know. There are no easy answers.
| antonis wrote: |
List them, given that the Republic of Cyprus would become a member of the EU in a weeks' time. _Tangible_ benefits, not things that would happen in a decade. |
There was an 'immediate' return of various areas that would have allowed, as I understand it, something like 40,000 Greek Cypriot refugees to return and under Greek Cypriot component state control. There were other 'immeditae benefiots' too. I Understand the Annan plan was not good enough for most Greek Cypriot, but let's not exagerate what it actually said if we can avoid it.
| antonis wrote: |
Look Erol, let's face it. The plan was designed in a way that it was much too difficult to convince a Greek Cypriot to say yes rather than to convince a Turkish Cypriot to do the same. It was a scam, a setup. |
That is your interpretation. It is not one I share. Clearly the plan eneded being one that Turkish Cypriot could vote yes to and Greek Cypriot could not - as the vote showed but I personally do not believe the UN _planned_ it to be that way. I believe that the UN and others genuinely hoped for come up with a plan that could and would be accepted by both communites and simply failed in that objective. I personaly think one of the reasons they failed was an unrealisitc assesment that histroicaly it was the Turkish Cypriot side that was intrasigent and not the Greek Cypriot side. To me the thesis that the Annan plan was desinged from day one to be something that Greek Cypriots would vote no to and Turkish Cypriots would vote yes too, all as part of some global consipracy against Greek Cypriots and in favour of Turkish Cypriots is just not credible.
| antonis wrote: |
So let me give you a simple example. Your side has obviously not had enough treatise in international relationships in the past three decades, in fact it is so following the Turkish foreign policy that it's a joke, and if you get 50% of the power immediately then the Turkish foreign policy will be imposed on Cyprus. |
Well it is quite insulting to be told that we are not 'expereinced' enough to have allowed an effective political voice in the decsions that affect out lives in our own homeland and would need to be 'trained' first before we could think of having such rights.
| antonis wrote: |
Suppose in the plan, the Cyprus federal gvmt would be entirely Greek Cypriot until Turkish Cypriots would be trained to be fit to take part in EU affairs etc, and suppose Annan called this period a good 15 years. Would that be OK for you? |
What would happen if in the period where the all Greek Cypriot controlled federal government decided to pass laws that changed the agreement made with Turkish Cypriot community such that they would in effect never get the political equality that was promised to them when they signed the agreement. What guarantees would the Turkish Cypriot community have against such changes without any form of political equality from 'day one'? |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| antonis wrote: |
If it's a stupid soccer game then you shouldn't take it seriously. In soccer games you hear whatever you want.
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Ok, let's not take the soccer game seriously. How about the Greek flags in the south? How about that Turkish Cypriot that was beaten in the south? How about the fact that no single TV channel was brave enough to show a documentary about Turkish Cypriot sufferrings? These are not serious either? Maybe I'm just paranoid.
| antonis wrote: |
The past is gone, people that want you to live in the 1960s and remind you of all the past without looking into the future definitely do not want reunification.
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The past is gone, Antonis but there are so many Greek Cypriots that still believe the "noble" cause of EOKA. There are so many Greek Cypriots that consider Turkish Cypriots nothing more than a minority and so many Greek Cypriots still believe that the Republic of Cyprus was "imposed" on the majority...Now how can I ignore these signs and believe that Greek Cypriots will be happy about sharing power with Turkish Cypriots and they won't consider a federal Cyprus being imposed on them? How can I be sure that agreements won't stay on paper? I know I won't be sure. That's why we ask for something that cannot stay on paper.
| antonis wrote: |
The plan was designed in a way that it was much too difficult to convince a Greek Cypriot to say yes rather than to convince a Turkish Cypriot to do the same. It was a scam, a setup.
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Can you explain your reasoning behind this? Why do you think the plan was such a setup? Who set it up for what? And also please think about this: If the Annan plan is such a setup, then why not Greek Cypriots come up with a plan that might be acceptable to both sides? Why expect a plan from others if all they do is to trick Greek Cypriots by setups?
| antonis wrote: |
So what kind of protection do the Greek Cypriots get from day 1? Is the army going to be gone before the implementation of the plan? Syria removed 14000 soldiers in 1 month. Turkey can remove the occupying army in 4 months max, why not?
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Maybe you should answer this question first: Why do Turkish Cypriots want the Turkish army so much when it's well known that Turkish Cypriots are not happy about the army and they're not fond of Turkish settlers? Could it be because they don't feel safe and they don't trust the majority? Why not eliminate the factors that make Turkish Cypriots unsafe instead of asking total withdrawal of the Turkish army in 4 months? What will the total withdrawal of the Turkish army solve expect satisfy Greek Cypriot security concerns 100% while ignoring Turkish Cypriot security concerns 100%? |
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antonis
Villager
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 70
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Alright both Erol and Mete are on the same page, so I'll answer in both their arguments on a single post 
First, the conclusion of this discussion may seem to be that we have incompatible views. That's a wrong conclusion. For for any argument you have (i.e. turkish cypriot beaten, greek flags in the south, documentary etc) I have 10 times more examples to give you, which will lead us nowhere. A constant reminder that Cyprus is Turkish is the huge duo of flags on Pentadaktilos. As for the documentary, I'm still waiting for a Turkish Cypriot that would dare do a documentary on Greek Cypriot sufferings.
Erol, I appreciate that you (personally) think that "(Turkish Cypriots) do not need or require political equality on everything" yet this is not what is being reflected in the plan. Bipolar (i.e. two, and only two, constituent states) federal structures are hard to formulate, but the Annan plan was way off the mark. I undestand that important decisions would require the consent of both communities, but the 50-50 dogma should not be implemented on every stage of the federal government.
Erol you said "Out of Greek Cypriot properties is one thing but not out of cyprus" re the settlers. Again we have to define what a settler is so as to make sure we're talking about the same issue here. But I hope you'd agree that settlers that you, the Turkish Cypriots, have not integrated in your society, i.e., Turkish citizens that live in some villages in Karpasia that even Turkish Cypriots would be scared to drive through - well these people have to leave. For if it's difficult for you to integrate them, just imagine how difficult it would be for a Greek Cypriot to do that.
Erol you say, "I do not think we refuse to discuss demiltirisation". You seem to be ignoring the pre-Talat era (i.e. pre-2003) as if nothing happened before then. Clerides put forward a demilitarization plan that was refused by Denktash.
Mete you say, "why not Greek Cypriots come up with a plan that might be acceptable to both sides?". The 1989 Greek Cypriot proposals. Some points in there are very forward-looking. As for the Annan plan, the UN, the US and the UK have intelligence groups in Cyprus and could sense what the two communities and their leaderships were up to. Did they want a solution but miscalculated everything?
| Quote: |
| There was an 'immediate' return of various areas that would have allowed, as I understand it, something like 40,000 Greek Cypriot refugees to return and under Greek Cypriot component state control. There were other 'immeditae benefiots' too. I Understand the Annan plan was not good enough for most Greek Cypriot, but let's not exagerate what it actually said if we can avoid it. |
Nothing was immediate apart on paper. Yes, the legality of the areas to be returned was established, but there was no guarantee that this would happen over a period of 3.5 years. So for me, that is not immediate. Even Famagusta would be given back in 100 days, not on day 1. The first refugees would be allowed to return as permanent residents in 2 years.
| Quote: |
| The past is gone, Antonis but there are so many Greek Cypriots that still believe the "noble" cause of EOKA. There are so many Greek Cypriots that consider Turkish Cypriots nothing more than a minority and so many Greek Cypriots still believe that the Republic of Cyprus was "imposed" on the majority...Now how can I ignore these signs and believe that Greek Cypriots will be happy about sharing power with Turkish Cypriots and they won't consider a federal Cyprus being imposed on them? How can I be sure that agreements won't stay on paper? I know I won't be sure. That's why we ask for something that cannot stay on paper. |
There will always be "so many" and "that many" that have certain views that may be annoying to you, and similarly for Greek Cypriots. I don't want the agreement to stay on paper either. So where's my safeguards??? How do I make sure you don't break the aggrement on day 2 and run away with what you got on day 1? Given a certain level of mistrust, shouldn't there be some mechanism to make sure that both communities get what they want in stages, or prepare for a day-1 immediate change? So why don't you relocate everyone that has to relocate according to the plan now, and send away the Turkish army, then we can implement the plan on day 1.
Erol you say "Turkish intervention was the only effective protection of our community and our rights". This IS a psychological barrier that you have to get over. The new Cyprus should be independent with no guardians. Even the SBAs should pack up and leave.
Then you say: "Well it is quite insulting..." Imagine how insulting it is for a state to have some 12,000 soldiers from abroad stationed on its territory until 2011. Imagine how insulting it is for a Greek Cypriot to be told that "you're 6%+1, you're not allowed to return to your house permanently, wait another 4 years".
Anyway, I was trying to come up with an example of the way you could think of this gradual integration business. Again, you have no foreign policy now, the Republic of Cyprus has had contacts and diplomats all over the world. How about doing that in stages too? Food for thought.
| Quote: |
| What would happen if in the period where the all Greek Cypriot controlled federal government decided to pass laws that changed the agreement made with Turkish Cypriot community such that they would in effect never get the political equality that was promised to them when they signed the agreement. What guarantees would the Turkish Cypriot community have against such changes without any form of political equality from 'day one'? |
What guarantees do Greek Cypriots have to return to their homes in 19 years? What guarantees do Greek Cypriots have that the Turkish army will decrease to 650 until 2019 or the accession of Turkey to the EU, whichever occurs earlier? Don't tell me that this arrangement isn't a joke. Honestly, this part even the most hopeful Greek Cypriot wouldn't trust.
Now why was there a 24% of Greek Cypriots that voted yes? |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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| antonis although I appreciate your views some of them are very valid you appear to be trying to convince yourself more than Turkish Cypriots why you rejected the Annan plan, many Greek Cypriots appear to have psychological withdrawal symptoms and rip to shreds the only opportunity we had that was put to the people that matter, us. As days and years go past and no developments unfold Greek Cypriots will realize that these opportunities are rare and that although the plan was not perfect and no plan will be they rejected a way forward. I truly believe that the Annan plan was a doorway to get us back together working for the same side which would be a united Cyprus building trust that would have aided us to see more clearly and many issues could have been revised and adjusted to suit both communities, seeing it was rejected the current status quo must be considered as the better alternative to the Annan plan. The Greek Cypriots didn't have to say YES to the Annan plan they were comfortable knowing there were going into the EU which meant they could use this leverage to extract exactly what they demand. |
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