 |
| Author |
Message |
Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
| Viewpoint wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| Viewpoint wrote: |
| I did say I think you said, man you are so uptight today, lack of sleep or something else? |
If we are to accept than for the next 50 years the 35% maximum should be guaranteed, what problem will you have? |
No problem for me but have said that you are the one with a problem? |
VP, putting aside for a while the issue of guaranteed majorities, what do you have to say about the rest of my ideas before it? I want your own personal opinion, and please try to be fair, objective, sensible and realistic, as much as this is possible, and please try to think outside the box. I would like to know your opinion. |
The problem of what is an extra ordinary issue and what is not is concerning as this can be manipulated to include laws that would effect the Turkish Cypriot community negatively. The fact that the upper house has the last say when passing laws where the balance is in favor of the Greek Cypriot community 19 to 11max is also alarming as we would be exposed to a null vote as the Greek Cypriot could in theory pass laws without our input or taking into account our concerns. Kifeas imho its all down to trust, normal issues for other countries are a problem for us as we do not trust Greek Cypriots to have our communities best interests as heart and visa versa. Maybe safety measures can be put in place for interim periods that will allow both sides to show their is nothing to worry about and that we can build a united Cyprus where everyone is equal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
I will start from this part first.
| Bananiot wrote: |
| I do not want to return the compliments of Kifeas but I am hoping that once his arsenal of insults is exhausted he can debate in a civilised manner. However, if it makes him feel better, he can go on abusing the rules of the forum since the state of his health is more important than our little abstract debates. Obviously, this kind of behaviour has a therapeutic effect on him and I fully respect this. |
Watch your own manners first, and your own insults first (both direct and disguised,) and learn first yourself how to debate in a civilised, but above all a sensible manner, and do not worry about mine.
If you believe that with attitudes like yours, you are offering any service to the T/Cs, you are making a huge mistake. If you think you are helping them in any way whatsoever, again you do a huge mistake. I am not going to solve the Cyprus problem, my self, through a forum, and discussing things with other T/Cs here. I do not have such a fake ambition. All I am doing is to help them understand why certain things we can accept, as a G/C community, and more importantly, why certain things we cannot possibly accept, and give the reasons and the logic behind them. I am trying, to the best of my knowledge and ability, to help them understand why certain things they ask do not comply with shear logic, fairness and universal acceptable norms, and also explain to them what our deepest concerns are, as they derive from our own deeper perceived historical realities and consciousness, something which they have to be able understand and if possible learn how to respect, once they realise that it doesn’t necessarily work against their own interests, or it is not something they should perceive in a negative and hostile way.
What are you doing in the forum? You are simply trying to demolish what I try to do. You are just trying to dispute and contradict what you know it’s the fact and the reality of the G/C community. You are trying to create a false picture to the T/Cs, and you are even spoiling them in the worst possible way. You are just manipulating them, by continuously telling them only what they want and like to hear, so that you win trust and “respect” points, god knows for what reason. In reality, you are working against peace in this country, and you are working against a solution. More than anyone else here, you are working for partition. You are giving them the false impression that because you alone and perhaps another 5-10 individuals within the G/C society, view the things in the way you view them, that perhaps they are right to insist on what they insist, and also allow them to maintain false hopes that perhaps more G/Cs will in the future decide to take your approach, and thus get to solve the Cyprus problem in the way they are made to believe is the right way.
You come here and the only thing you do is to insult, falsely expose and ridicule Papadopoulos, for completely foolish reasons, encouraging them to wrongfully assume and believe that he is the real and the only problem in all this, instead of helping them do their own soul-searching and see what they are wrongfully demanding from their part. You are simply here in order to disorient and spoil them, and you become extremely worried as soon as anything I say starts making sense to them. You immediately become insecure, and you feel that you may loose ground in all the nonsense that you are trying to serve to them all the time.
| Bananiot wrote: |
| This is getting way out of hand. On one hand there is Kifeas claiming in all seriousness that his idea of BBF is the model that the government and Papadopoulos himself is proposing and on the other hand the rest of the forum taking him seriously and arguing the finer details. I would be interested, as anyone would be, to see hard evidence of this and also the official reaction of the other side. |
Why is it getting way out of hand? Are you worried that perhaps there is a third road, outside the box in which Annan has placed you? Why don’t you instead comment on what I have said so far -on the essence and not on silly pick ups like you did? Why the above isn’t a set of ideas which both T/Cs and /or the G/Cs should be happy? Yes, the above is a possible outcome if one takes into consideration the positions of the G/C National Council, as they were communicated to the UN envoy Prendergast, by Tzionis and Papadopoulos, last summer. It is a type of BBF solution that I am personally sure Papadopoulos is also ready to accept. Is the reason that makes you so worried, the fact that people may realise that Papadopoulos is not dead against any BBF formula, as you always claim in the forums? Are you afraid that people may realise in the end how fake your mad slinging and slandering propaganda is?
| Bananiot wrote: |
| P.S. If there is a tsunami in the south, where shall we go? If a spacecraft, loaded with extra terrestrials, lands in the place where he was ousted from, what would the settlers do? These are the types of questions he asks and expects serious answers. |
I hope if a spacecraft loaded with extra terrestrials ever lands in Cyprus, they kidnap and take you them when they depart. Of course, even the dumbest know that I used the Tsunami example in a figurative sense, in order to illustrate why by definition and as a matter of principle, the notion of permanently and infinitely accept to self-restrict our natural and historical right to exist anywhere in our ancestral homeland is not the right thing to do. I also gave some more tangible examples in my arguments against it, which you refrained from answering, obviously because you have no counter-arguments. Instead, you have picked up on the Tsunami example, in order to ridicule my thesis. Nevertheless, the people of Sri-Lanka, Thailand and Indonesia can only wonder whether they should be laughing or crying with your arrogance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
|
|
Kifeas
| Quote: |
The possibility of becoming the majority in the north under normal and natural circumstances is negligible if non-existent. Do not insist on that because I will ask for an I.Q. test first, before I reply to your posts again. Furthermore, you have the option of accepting a reduced territory percentage for the North state, should you want to completely eliminate this 0.1% of insignificant probability that may theoretically exist. I do not suggest you to trust the G/Cs (especially and particularly you,) but I suggest you to trust your common sense only. I am sure there is a little bit left.
|
and then you have the nerve to say
| Quote: |
Watch your own manners first, and your own insults first (both direct and disguised,) and learn first yourself how to debate in a civilised, but above all a sensible manner, and do not worry about mine.
|
If you throw mud Kifeas obviously people will throw it back, its human nature, if you debate in a a civilized and sensible manner then people will also react in the same way.
Is this general Greek Cypriot mentality from the 60s and 70s its OK if I do it but you are not allowed. Ill insult, attack discriminate and kill you but when you respond with even more strength they turn around and complain. If you ignite a bomb it will surely go off.
Plus your above post demeans our ability to think and evaluate for ourselves, I personally appreciate Bananiots posts as they are very refreshing, frank and contain a lot of truths which you have great difficulty accepting. there is always another view Kifeas the trick is read and absorb, you have the right to accept, reject partly agree but you have no right to try and stop anyone from putting across their viewpoint. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| Viewpoint wrote: |
Kifeas
| Quote: |
The possibility of becoming the majority in the north under normal and natural circumstances is negligible if non-existent. Do not insist on that because I will ask for an I.Q. test first, before I reply to your posts again. Furthermore, you have the option of accepting a reduced territory percentage for the North state, should you want to completely eliminate this 0.1% of insignificant probability that may theoretically exist. I do not suggest you to trust the G/Cs (especially and particularly you,) but I suggest you to trust your common sense only. I am sure there is a little bit left.
|
and then you have the nerve to say
| Quote: |
Watch your own manners first, and your own insults first (both direct and disguised,) and learn first yourself how to debate in a civilised, but above all a sensible manner, and do not worry about mine.
|
If you throw mud Kifeas obviously people will throw it back, its human nature, if you debate in a a civilized and sensible manner then people will also react in the same way.
Is this general Greek Cypriot mentality from the 60s and 70s its OK if I do it but you are not allowed. Ill insult, attack discriminate and kill you but when you respond with even more strength they turn around and complain. If you ignite a bomb it will surely go off.
Plus your above post demeans our ability to think and evaluate for ourselves, I personally appreciate Bananiots posts as they are very refreshing, frank and contain a lot of truths which you have great difficulty accepting. there is always another view Kifeas the trick is read and absorb, you have the right to accept, reject partly agree but you have no right to try and stop anyone from putting across their viewpoint. |
I am not surprised -in fact I was anticipating, for you to be the first one to declare your support for Bananiot, and your disapproval of whatever I said.
Of course, not "unintentionally" you missed to mention this post,
http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58047#58047
which came before the ones you quoted.
I am glad that Bananiot has allies like you. I would have been greatly concerned if it was the other way around.
I never doubted the fact that all Bananiot is doing is to exchange ammunition with the most reactionary T/C forces, a typical example of whom you always remain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
|
|
| Thank you, I am honoured to be considered an ally of Bananiot who I would trust to treat all Cypriots both sides of the divide fairly, but I am unable to place the same trust in you Kifeas as you generally only try to impose your own point of view as being the correct one on others and show no consideration for anyone else. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| Viewpoint wrote: |
The problem of what is an extra ordinary issue and what is not is concerning as this can be manipulated to include laws that would effect the Turkish Cypriot community negatively. The fact that the upper house has the last say when passing laws where the balance is in favor of the Greek Cypriot community 19 to 11max is also alarming as we would be exposed to a null vote as the Greek Cypriot could in theory pass laws without our input or taking into account our concerns. Kifeas imho its all down to trust, normal issues for other countries are a problem for us as we do not trust Greek Cypriots to have our communities best interests as heart and visa versa. Maybe safety measures can be put in place for interim periods that will allow both sides to show their is nothing to worry about and that we can build a united Cyprus where everyone is equal. |
VP, if for ordinary matters the Senate approves with simple majority provided that at least 1/5 of each sub-component also approves, for extraordinary matters at least 2/5 of each subcomponent approves, and for extra-extraordinary matters at least 3/5 of each subcomponent approves, will this be sufficient? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
| Viewpoint wrote: |
The problem of what is an extra ordinary issue and what is not is concerning as this can be manipulated to include laws that would effect the Turkish Cypriot community negatively. The fact that the upper house has the last say when passing laws where the balance is in favor of the Greek Cypriot community 19 to 11max is also alarming as we would be exposed to a null vote as the Greek Cypriot could in theory pass laws without our input or taking into account our concerns. Kifeas imho its all down to trust, normal issues for other countries are a problem for us as we do not trust Greek Cypriots to have our communities best interests as heart and visa versa. Maybe safety measures can be put in place for interim periods that will allow both sides to show their is nothing to worry about and that we can build a united Cyprus where everyone is equal. |
VP, if for
1) ordinary matters the Senate approves with simple majority provided that at least 1/5 of each sub-component also approves,
2) for extraordinary matters at least 2/5 of each subcomponent approves, and
3) for extra-extraordinary matters at least 3/5 of each subcomponent approves,
will this be sufficient? |
Not really sure what u r saying here, could you clarify what the 1/5 is? 1/5th 1 to 5 balance?
How many north or south state votes would be needed to pass laws? |
|
| Back to top |
|
cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
|
|
i think what he means is that :
if there are for example 10 Turkish Cypriots Senators , then you need a positive vote from at least 2 for ordinary matters ,4 for extraordinary , and 6 for XXordinary. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
I made a suggestion for the senate to be constituted by 3 equal Components, each one representing a difference concept.
The 1st Component will represent the political equality of the two communities and will consist of two equal subcomponents, the G/C and the T/C community. These senators will be elected on the basis of “ethnic” (community) basis, irrespective of State residency. The 2nd Component will represent the political equality of the two States and will consist of two equal subcomponents, the South and the North State. These senators will be elected on the basis of State residency basis, irrespective of “ethnic” (community) identity. The 3rd Component will represent the political equality of the individual people of Cyprus as a whole. These senators will be elected on an aggregate basis and in a uniform way by the entire people of Cyprus, irrespective of State residency and irrespective of “ethnic” (community) identity.
If we assume that the senate will have a total of 30 senators, then we have:
1.) The Communitie's component with 10 senators, 5 from the G/C community subcomponent and 5 from the T/C community subcomponent.
2.) The State's component with 10 senators, 5 from the South State subcomponent and 5 from the North State subcomponent.
3.) The People's Component with 10 senators.
When I say 1/5, I mean 1/5th or 20%. Equally, 2/5ths or 40%, and 3/5ths or 60% of each subcomponent! A subcomponent is, for example, the 5 representative Senators of the T/C community, or the 5 representative Senators of the South State.
For ordinary matters the Senate approves with simple majority, provided that at least 1/5th of each subcomponent also approves, for extraordinary matters if at least 2/5 ths of each subcomponent approves, and for extra-extraordinary matters if at least 3/5 ths of each subcomponent approves.
Last edited by Kifeas on Sat May 13, 2006 1:13 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1742
Location: Canada
|
|
Bi-communal and/or bizonal does not have to mean only two parts. To repopulate this island, and for the 'protection' of each community, through reciprocity and goodwill, I have suggested on many occasions a scattering of 'city-states'(cantons), over the whole island, offering the settlers homes, and the displaced an end to injustice.
Our individual rights as Cypriots; free association, expression and movement, are best provided by the State. Futuristicly, what about all those Europeans who have access to this island as dwellers, will we expect them to choose to be "Greek" or "Turkish"? The answer is yes... or both, and more. Cantons provide easy access to services of all kinds, to all citizens, where ever they live, as a minority.
Cypriot politics will greatly benefit if every elector has three votes: an independant representative, for the lower house by riding, and an upper house with an equal number of seats for each community, whose leader wins the greatest number of seats, where every voter has chosen to cast two votes, one from each list of candidates.
What I believe is needed is a government that mirrors the Turkish Cypriot authority, that is to say a Greek Cypriot authoriy, so that internally, there is self determination by community, even if it appears to be a duplication of service, consider how each state will grow having these satellite communities, and how they will reciprocate each others' services toward becoming multilingually efficient.
In return the governing power that is the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus would renouce their fielty to Turkey. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
|
|
| kifeas, your idea is warming on me...i like it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| Dhavlos wrote: |
| kifeas, your idea is warming on me...i like it! |
I know why you like it Dhavlos. You like it because it is logical, sound, fair, balanced and geometrically square (or equilateral.) It is something conceived by a fun of Leonardo da Vinci!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
I made a suggestion for the senate to be constituted by 3 equal Components, each one representing a difference concept.
The 1st Component will represent the political equality of the two communities and will consist of two equal subcomponents, the G/C and the T/C community. These senators will be elected on the basis of “ethnic” (community) basis, irrespective of State residency. The 2nd Component will represent the political equality of the two States and will consist of two equal subcomponents, the South and the North State. These senators will be elected on the basis of State residency basis, irrespective of “ethnic” (community) identity. The 3rd Component will represent the political equality of the individual people of Cyprus as a whole. These senators will be elected on an aggregate basis and in a uniform way by the entire people of Cyprus, irrespective of State residency and irrespective of “ethnic” (community) identity.
If we assume that the senate will have a total of 30 senators, then we have:
1.) The Communitie's component with 10 senators, 5 from the G/C community subcomponent and 5 from the T/C community subcomponent.
2.) The State's component with 10 senators, 5 from the South State subcomponent and 5 from the North State subcomponent.
3.) The People's Component with 10 senators.
When I say 1/5, I mean 1/5th or 20%. Equally, 2/5ths or 40%, and 3/5ths or 60% of each subcomponent! A subcomponent is, for example, the 5 representative Senators of the T/C community, or the 5 representative Senators of the South State.
For ordinary matters the Senate approves with simple majority, provided that at least 1/5th of each subcomponent also approves, for extraordinary matters if at least 2/5 ths of each subcomponent approves, and for extra-extraordinary matters if at least 3/5 ths of each subcomponent approves. |
So just to make this even clearer lets take a likely scenario allowing for population distribution;
Senators elected on;
1) Ethnic lines 5TCs 5GCs
2) Residency 3TCs 7GCs
3) Unitary 2TCs 8GCs
Totals Senators in the Senate 10TCs 20GCs
Decision taking mechanism minimum votes required from each component state senators according to given percentages would be as follows;
1) Ordinary 2TCs 4GCs
2) Extra 4TCs 8Gcs
3) Ex-Extra 6TCs 12Gcs
On the surface looks good but where this falls flat on its face is the senators elected in the Turkish Cypriot state on Residency and Unitary grounds will be more than likely due to population distribution be of Greek Cypriot ethnic origins and total approx 5/6 senators. This number is sufficient to wipe out any Turkish Cypriot community influence on decisions being taken even at the highest level of Ex-extra ordinary decisions. Did you not take this into account Kifeas or was this intentional?? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| Viewpoint wrote: |
So just to make this even clearer lets take a likely scenario allowing for population distribution;
Senators elected on;
1) Ethnic lines 5TCs 5GCs
2) Residency 3TCs 7GCs
3) Unitary 2TCs 8GCs
Totals Senators in the Senate 10TCs 20GCs
Decision taking mechanism minimum votes required from each component state senators according to given percentages would be as follows;
1) Ordinary 2TCs 4GCs
2) Extra 4TCs 8Gcs
3) Ex-Extra 6TCs 12Gcs
On the surface looks good but where this falls flat on its face is the senators elected in the Turkish Cypriot state on Residency and Unitary grounds will be more than likely due to population distribution be of Greek Cypriot ethnic origins and total approx 5/6 senators. This number is sufficient to wipe out any Turkish Cypriot community influence on decisions being taken even at the highest level of Ex-extra ordinary decisions. Did you not take this into account Kifeas or was this intentional?? |
Last edited by Kifeas on Sat May 13, 2006 6:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| Code: |
Simple majority, plus at least the following minimums from each subcomponent:
_____________________________________________________________________
| || Communities Comp.|| States Comp. || |
| || 10 Sen. || 10 Sen. || People’s |
| ||------------------||---------------|| Comp. |
| || TurCyp | GrkCyp || North | South || 10 Sen. |
| || 5 Sen. | 5 Sen. || 5 Sen.| 5 Sen.|| |
|------------------||--------|---------||-------|-------||----------|
|Ordinary mattrs: || 1:5 | 1:5 || 1:5 | 1:5 || 2:10 |
|----------------- ||--------|---------||-------|-------||----------|
|X-ordinary mattrs:|| 2:5 | 2:5 || 2:5 | 2:5 || 4:10 |
|----------------- ||--------|---------||-------|-------||----------|
|XX-ordinar.mattrs:|| 3:5 | 3:5 || 3:5 | 3:5 || 6:10 |
|__________________||________|_________||_______|_______||__________|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
 
 
Link Partners
3212 Attacks blocked
|
Register 
Log in 
Album 
Home