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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
Bully you???? You must be joking!!! Well, I give you the “permission” to post here all but all the PM messages that we have exchanged yesterday, so that everyone sees if I have attempted to bully you! |
5 PM all insisting that I agree with you. All ignoring anything I say and all repeating the same things over and over that you now repeat here publically. |
Precisely the opposite was the case! You was the one continually ignoring and refusing to address any argument I would provide and instead kept repeating the same things over and over, precisely in the same way that you have been doing here! But any way, why don’t you just post all the 5 PMs that we have both exchanged! You first claimed that I tried to bully you through those messages, now you seem to claim that I was just and simply ignoring anything you was saying.
| erolz wrote: |
| Are you REALLY going to SERIOUSLY claim that what you wrote about Eric not having the thing necessary to be brainwashed was NOT INTENDED by you to be insult against him but was in fact a compliment? If your posts are reasonably intepreted by me to be insults they will be quarantined. That is how this forum works. Take it or leave it. |
I am not going claim anything! I am simply explaining to you -so that you learn it; that you do not have the right to judge and rule on anyone’s intended sayings by making assumptions! And in that case you simply made an assumption of what I intended to have meant! Your authoritarian –almost totalitarian- and arbitrary attitude, as it is revealed from the above paragraph, is more than obvious! Well, neither I will take it, not I will live it! I will let you do the job, as you have promised and revealed your intention to do so in one of your PMs to me last night!
| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
You see what you want to see, and you simply choose not to want to see almost what everybody else sees. |
By what right or under what delusion do you think you can talk for what EVERYBODY ELSE sees? Or is it to be taken as given that YOUR PERSONAL view is automatically what EVERYBODY ELSE thinks? |
By the same right and the same dilution that you think it is logical to attempt and rule on the basis of assumptions only, but also by the right that 7 members of the forum that have e-mailed me tonight to say how much they agree with my perspective, have given to me! Nevertheless, the term I used above is that of “ALMOST everybody,” and not EVERYBODY as you make it sound! I hope that at least on this one you are able to see the difference. |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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The measures taken by the Forum Administration against personal insults are a bit too harsh.
I believe that the right to say that somebody is brainless is part of freedom of speech - it is simply an expression of one person's opinion on the other person's mental capacity. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and everybody should be free to express it, and that some people interpret a critical evaluation of their mental capacity as an insult cannot be a reason for restrictions on the freedom of speech.
I reserve my right to call other people brainless, stupid, idiotic or narrominded and I believe the Forum Administration is wrong in taking this right from me.
In my opinion all recent censorship in relation to the new rules are utterly unacceptable and against the principles of freedom of speech (I only agree with the censorship of the obscenitites of Main_Source). |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1767
Location: Canada
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I don't get it, I read a wonderfully written piece from Kifeas, which I linked to from my e-mail notice about 'brits homes', but arrived at 'quarentine'. Is this the piece that was erased?
All I can say is Kifeas, keep writing. For now, the matter should be closed. |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1767
Location: Canada
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Now I am really confused, haveing found the most recent piece in quarentine.
My quetion is therefore, did this posting get a blue card fron anyone, or does Viewpoint feel that these comments, one word I believe, in the first paragraph, harm his person?
Personally, I find Eric's man rolling around laughing offensive, but that would be allowed in a government house.
Rules of order, as the administration and the moderators suggest, in this case, and perhaps in others, would be the tone, set in a governing authourity. It is probably where I got the idea to use the chat room feature, to exploit this practice in our exchange, standing government models of legislatures... |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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You just seem incapable of acting with civility and within the forum rules
| Kifeas wrote: |
Viewpoint, I have always thought you were acting just like a jokerin the forum, and your above post simply proves once more the fact! The above more than obvious desire of yours to act as a moral booster and a back-scratcher for the administrator simply makes you look like a typical oily flatterer of the lowest level! Indeed, what a worst way to express your gratitude to your master that fought all his way to cover you up for your own insulting comments that he inequitably left “unpunished!”   |
If I interpret calling another forum member 'an oily flatterer of the lowest level' as personal abuse will you once again get on your hight horse Kifeas and accuse me of abusing my position?
We have tried leniency and pleading and reason in anattempt to enourage you to stop thrwoing personal insult around in your post. We have tried stictish enforcement of the rules. Neither has made one iota of difference to you. You still frequently post without civility and against the forum rules and in the most personalised manner.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Precisely the opposite was the case! You was the one continually ignoring and refusing to address any argument I would provide and instead kept repeating the same things over and over, precisely in the same way that you have been doing here! But any way, why don’t you just post all the 5 PMs that we have both exchanged! You first claimed that I tried to bully you through those messages, now you seem to claim that I was just and simply ignoring anything you was saying. |
Repeatedly PMing me to get me to say that a decision I do not think is wrong, is wrong - oevr and over again is as fara as I am concerned bullying behaviour. The PM's to paraphrase them were
"Your decision was wrong. Admit it."
"I do not think my decison was wrong. This is the basis of my decision"
Reapeat 4 more times. Then repeat in the public forum.
| Kifeas wrote: |
I am not going claim anything! |
Of course you are not going to claim anything beacuse the intent and meaning of your phrase is totaly clear and to claim that it was NOT INTENDED to be personal insult or teven a compliment would be absurd in the extreme.
| Kifeas wrote: |
I am simply explaining to you -so that you learn it; |
Yes Kifeas you have been trying to TEACH me what I MUST agree with and accept from your first PM. I simply do not agree with you. Yet still I MUST LEARN from you what is right and what is wrong. Yet I am not the one that constantly personalises their posts and resorts to personal insults of others - not here or on any other forum, so clearly I must have much to learn from your wisdom.
| Kifeas wrote: |
that you do not have the right to judge and rule on anyone’s intended sayings by making assumptions! And in that case you simply made an assumption of what I intended to have meant! Your authoritarian –almost totalitarian- and arbitrary attitude, as it is revealed from the above paragraph, is more than obvious! |
Not only do I have the right as far as I am concerned to make such value judgments I have an OBLIGATION to do so as an admin here. I maintain that to infere you were saying that the poster concerned did not have a brain was a pefectly reasonable and obvious interpretation fo your post. I have not a shadow of a doubt that that was your intent and that you fully expected everyone reading the post to know that was your intent. I do not think for a minute you chose that particular phrase thinking 'ah yes when people read this they will think I am complimenting Eric Dayi' as you suggest could be one possibility. The phrase was undoubtedly imo a direct insult against another forum member. You intended it as such when you wrote it, of this I have no doubt, and then when I judged it as such you get on your 'high horse' and start trying to teach me what I must know.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Well, neither I will take it, not I will live it! I will let you do the job, as you have promised and revealed your intention to do so in one of your PMs to me last night! |
It is increasingly clear Kifeas that NOTHING will stop you from behaving in any way you like. Not the forum rules. Not common decency and civility. Not leniency. Not polite requests. Not pleading requests.Not enforcment of the rules. Nothing will stop it it would seem from treating the forum rules with utter contempt. No doubt the future is clear in this regard. You will continue to break the forum rules and litter your posts with personal insults and I and the other moderators will continue to quarantine them and you will continue to complain that you are being persecuted.
As to some oblique referance to something in a PRIVATE message between us well that is in itself uncivil behaviour imho.
| Quote: |
| By the same right and the same dilution that you think it is logical to attempt and rule on the basis of assumptions only, but also by the right that 7 members of the forum that have e-mailed me tonight to say how much they agree with my perspective, have given to me! |
There are reasonable assumptions and unreasonable assumptions. To assume that the phrase in your post was intended as a personal insult and that you expect almost everybody to understand it as such is as far as I am concerned the most reasonable of assumptions.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Nevertheless, the term I used above is that of “ALMOST everybody,” and not EVERYBODY as you make it sound! I hope that at least on this one you are able to see the difference. |
Well if we are to play this childish pedantic game what you actually said exactly and that I quoted verbatamin was as follows
| Quote: |
| You see what you want to see, and you simply choose not to want to see almost what everybody else sees. |
So were you saying that I almost did not see what everybody else sees or were you saying I did not see what almost everybody else sees? Should I make a judgement and reasonable assumption about that? Either way you did not say 'almost everybody' as you claim above you said 'almost what everybody'.
In any case even if one assumes that your claimed 7 emails are valid and from 7 seperate members of the forum that still does not come anywhere near close to being 'almost everybody' - yet you still feel justified in presenting your own position as 'almost everybody' - or to be totaly accurate 'almost what everbody'.
I will repeat once more the obvious and simple reality. If you stop throwing personal insults at other members in your posts then none of your post will ever be quarantined for that reason. If you continue to throw personal insults aroiud in your posts they will be quarantined. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| repulsewarrior wrote: |
| Now I am really confused, haveing found the most recent piece in quarentine. |
The part that is is breach of the forum rules on not personaly insulting other members in Kifeas' post would be this part
| Quote: |
| If you want peace, you better learn to how to accept and tolerate us, like we are prepared to accept and tolerate you, and stop thinking and acting like a fanaticised and brainwashed little fascist that believes and hopes that with the use of foreign Turkish force will achieve and secure anything! |
Now maybe this is again one of my unreasonable assumptions but to me I consider calling someone (or accusing them of acting and thinking like) "a fanaticised and brainwashed little fascist" a personal insult aimed at that person and as such is against the forum rules.
| repulsewarrior wrote: |
| My quetion is therefore, did this posting get a blue card fron anyone, or does Viewpoint feel that these comments, one word I believe, in the first paragraph, harm his person? |
If a post is in breach of the forum rules it does not require a 'blue card' to be issued in order for the rules to be enforced. Sending such a blue cartd is a means to ensure that the moderators have seen a post but it is not a require prerequisit for action to be taken. In this case this specific post did recieve a blue card from another forum member, but I would have quarantined it for the above breach even if it had not and I has seen it.
| repulsewarrior wrote: |
Personally, I find Eric's man rolling around laughing offensive, but that would be allowed in a government house. |
The rules do not prohibit anything that any other member may find offensive, as some have agrued they should, for such would lead to nothing being sayable by anyone about anything. The rule prohibit personal insults against other forum members. This is not because this is the ONLY offenive behaviour possible but because it is ONE kind of offensive behaviour that IS policeable without undermining reasoned debate and we would like to not see it on this forum by anyone.
I personaly find it offensive to be accused of running this forum in a totalitarian manner and an ethnicaly baised manner despite that fact that have spent enormous effort to do exactly the opposite making it as balanced as possible in terms of those admin/moderating it (something I did not have to do but chose to do) and as inclusive as possible in terms of the membership and decisions about how it is run (something I did not have to do but chose to do) and despite that fact that there are quarantined posts from both 'sides' sitting in quarantine and many posts by people who believe or claim they are being persectued that are NOT in quarantine that could easily be under a strict interpretation of the rules. I find this very offensive yet I do not argue that people should not be able to make these accusations. |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5357
Location: National Forest, England
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Ok folks, it's simple... as soon as Kifeas edits the post it will be reinstated. Even if a post is great and contains one statement that is an insult against another member (saying that someone is behaving like a fascist is essentially calling them the same thing), it will be quarantined. This is not up for discussion and if members want to test the boundaries and receive temporary bans as a result, they are free to do so. The current spate of argument about this is very silly and childish and demonstrates that some people really don't know what they want from this forum. The same people who complain about moderation complain when there's a free-for-all, which says to me that those in question simply love whinging and nothing more.
However, I would hope that self-moderation is possible amongst adults otherwise it's pretty sad. Anyway, I'm not prepared to indulge in a lengthy debate about this. In general Kifeas' post was great, but by sneaking an insulting reference in there he violated the new code and unfortunately his post had to go to the sin-bin. End of. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| bg_turk wrote: |
The measures taken by the Forum Administration against personal insults are a bit too harsh.
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Bg_Turk, thanks for your level headed contribution in this discussion. Even though we two disagree on some issues, I always considered you a person of higher humanitarian intelligence, a rather rare it seems virtue.
Let me ask you a question that I would like you to approach not just from your capacity as a Turkish Bulgarian citizen, but more as a universal human being that you perfectly deserve to be regarded so.
What is for you as a human the biggest insult of the following two:
a.) To say that the violent ethnic cleansing (assuming that it is an undeniable fact that it happened) and the subsequent later forceful assimilating efforts (also assuming the same as the first action) of Balkan states like Greece and Bulgaria towards the Turkish speaking populations of the Balkans, were a reasonable and unavoidable cause of action because there was a risk that those populations would have attempted to undermine the national unity and cohesiveness of those countries?
Or
b.) Someone to directly call you an asshole for claiming something like the above, or anything for this matter?
I am sure you will say to me that you would rather prefer to be called an asshole 100 times on a row, than to be confronted with the above first (a) obscene insult! The second (b) is a direct insult against you which if you have received from someone rather unreasonably and unjustifiably; everyone in the forum will laugh at the person that directed it and will definitely stop taking him seriously or ignore him completely. The first one however (a,) is an undeniable indirect insult against humanity and a direct insult against you as a human but also for been a victim of the very act, because it is an attempt to rationalize and legitimize an undeniable crime against humanity and an undeniable crime against your very own family.
Now listen to this! According to the so-called new rules of the forum that the appointed British advisor had prepared, I would rather be allowed to say the above (a) obscene insult to you, simply because it is not a direct personal insult against you or another individual forum member but rather a “matter of opinion” that should be accommodated under the concept of “freedom of expression.” If however, you, as a human being and a direct victim of the above rationalized obscenity, rightfully felt insulted and react back to me by calling me for what I truly am (an asshole) for having claimed the above (a,) you are violating the forum rules that the British advisor has masterminded and you will receive a warning and have your post been deleted, while mine will remain untouched to be hanging there in the forum for everyone to read.
Such are the new rules that the “prim” but at the same time cynically phlegmatic Anglo-Saxons have masterminded!
Last edited by Kifeas on Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:48 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Bullika
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 3025
Location: World
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| bg_turk wrote: |
The measures taken by the Forum Administration against personal insults are a bit too harsh.
I believe that the right to say that somebody is brainless is part of freedom of speech - it is simply an expression of one person's opinion on the other person's mental capacity. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and everybody should be free to express it, and that some people interpret a critical evaluation of their mental capacity as an insult cannot be a reason for restrictions on the freedom of speech.
I reserve my right to call other people brainless, stupid, idiotic or narrominded and I believe the Forum Administration is wrong in taking this right from me.
In my opinion all recent censorship in relation to the new rules are utterly unacceptable and against the principles of freedom of speech (I only agree with the censorship of the obscenitites of Main_Source). |
I think the forum is turning abit too authoritarian. Simply identify the real culprits (we know who they are) and evict them. End of story.
However, giving out warnings like candy to members like me who react to provocation is not fair. |
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Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
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| Bullika wrote: |
However, giving out warnings like candy to members like me who react to provocation is not fair. |
I agree with you. |
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Crash Test Dummy
Warnings : 3
Ministerial
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 4911
Location: London(ish)
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| I want a warning I feel left out |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5357
Location: National Forest, England
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| Xenos 2Fan wrote: |
| Bullika wrote: |
However, giving out warnings like candy to members like me who react to provocation is not fair. |
I agree with you. |
Sorry, but we're all capable of self-restraint so this argument doesn't wash. As the code says, if you argue the point, not the person you need not worry about warnings. If you get hot under the collar occasionally, warnings essentially mean nothing anyway as it will take you forever to accrue enough to get a temporary suspension. The warnings system is designed for those who frequently cause problems by indulging in personalised arguments which destroy threads. We all know who they are and they all know who they are. It's not a case of authoritarianism, if it was, they would be banned after one ill-judged post, and banned permanently. This is actually quite a lenient system which offers individuals a chance to mend their own ways before any penalty is imposed. If you think that's authoritarian, you're obviously even more liberal than I. |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5357
Location: National Forest, England
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| Crash Test Dummy wrote: |
| I want a warning I feel left out |
Somehow I feel you'll achieve your goal one day Dummy... |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Kifeas wrote: |
What is for you as a human the biggest insult of the following two:
a.) To say that the violent ethnic cleansing (assuming that it is an undeniable fact that it happened) and the subsequent later forceful assimilating efforts (also assuming the same as the first action) of Balkan states like Greece and Bulgaria towards the Turkish speaking populations of the Balkans, were a reasonable and unavoidable cause of action because there was a risk that those populations would have attempted to undermine the national unity and cohesiveness of those countries?
Or
b.) Someone to directly call you an asshole for claiming something like the above, or anything for this matter?
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Dear Kifeas,
There's a huge difference between (a) and (b). Let's remind ourselves the premise of the forum. This forum is for discussion and learning from others. That's why we spend our time here, to hear other people's opinions and test our own ideas and possibly change them if we're faced with a clear anti-thesis to our arguments.
Now, given that we agree with the premise of the forum, (b) basically says "I don't care who you are what your ideas are, you're an asshole". It shuts down the communication lines and it's completely against the premise of the forum. It's not only insulting but it's also harmful to the premise of the forum.
On the other hand, (a) can be considered insulting depending on your historical beliefs. It's not insulting to everyone as I'm sure there are people who might agree with the statement. But more importantly, (a), as insulting as it can be to some, leaves an open door for discussion. The person that made the claim (a) can try to defend it with arguments and you can try to reply back with arguments. Therefore it's not against the premise of the forum. It's merely a claim that you consider insulting given the version of history you believe.
The bottom line here is that every time we post in the forum we have to remind ourselves if our post is against the premise of the forum or not. We have to remind ourselves if our post contributes to the discussion or if it simply destroys the discussion. |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| Crash Test Dummy wrote: |
| I want a warning I feel left out |
Bullika is a generous guy - he might give you one of his. |
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