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Bullika
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| Dhavlos wrote: |
just to add my two cents...there are probably a lot of oral similarities between kibriaka and kibrizlija....they probably have similar sounds that are not from teh mainlands.
eg, greek --> cypriot
k --> g or like french j, p --> b, x(soft ch sound) --> h, we also have ch and sh....
i can imagine that some sounds in cypriotturkish do the same thing? eg, having a j sound or a b sound instead of p? in that sense it would show a similarity with kibriaka.
Also i can imagine that a lot of words are teh same...like kori etc...memo, your website has many words that are like kibriaka.
This is interesting guys! |
I think intonation used in Gibrizlidja is probably from Kypriaki dialectos, it makes sense as Greek speakers ask questions by raising the pitch of their voice. So by doing this, a declarative statement can become interrogative.
Thelete / Thelis enan Kaffe me galo - You want coffee with milk
(Declarative)
By raising the voce towards the end this becomes a question.
* My apologies if the Greek cases i use is incorrect. |
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Bullika
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| Dhavlos wrote: |
just to add my two cents...there are probably a lot of oral similarities between kibriaka and kibrizlija....they probably have similar sounds that are not from teh mainlands.
eg, greek --> cypriot
k --> g or like french j, p --> b, x(soft ch sound) --> h, we also have ch and sh....
i can imagine that some sounds in cypriotturkish do the same thing? eg, having a j sound or a b sound instead of p? in that sense it would show a similarity with kibriaka.
Also i can imagine that a lot of words are teh same...like kori etc...memo, your website has many words that are like kibriaka.
This is interesting guys! |
Without digressing too much from what is a discussion on Cypriot Turkish. I think the "sh" and tsch" in Kypriaka (Cypriot Greek) comes either from Turkish or is a relic of ancient mycenaean Greek.
Cypriot Turkish is of course very heavily influenced by Kypriaka, without a doubt. But it has other influences too and it is not an imitation of Kypriaka, a pirated copy- it has its own integrity as well. |
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Bullika
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Dhavlos,
You are absolutely right.In Cypriotturkish too the hard consonants are softened so:
K becomes g (kardesh becomes gardash,also notice that the "e" became 'a" to comply with the vowel harmony rule which seems to be abandoned in turkey)
t becomes d (tomates becomes domates)
also as I said earlier the "n" sometimes becomes "m" and sometimes "hard g" (nuska becomes muska,sana becomes saga)...
I wonder what the origins of this softening is,since it is with both languages it must have a common source...FAscinating  |
Yes absolutely, and I think this exists in other Turkic languages like Azeri, where
Kardesh is Gardash.
K>G
Pazar > Bazar
P>B
Possibly in some dialects in anatolia this also exists.
interestingly in Turkic languages like Tartar,
its the opposite!
Dil > Til
so, Tartar Tili- The Tartar Language |
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Dhavlos
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| Bullika wrote: |
| Cypriot Turkish is of course very heavily influenced by Kypriaka, without a doubt. But it has other influences too and it is not an imitation of Kypriaka, a pirated copy- it has its own integrity as well. |
I didnt mean to say that kibriaka is the only influence...im saying they are mutually influenced by each other...
(PS milk is gala/yala   )
ok...enough of kibriaka...back to kibrizlija |
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Bullika
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| I also know we have a lot of words from Italian which might be from the Roman times."Sakko,potin, kundura,baston..." and a host of other words not heard of in Turkey are from italian i think.It would be interesting if these are also used by the Greek Cypriots,don't you think??? |
Potin is Ottoman Turkish, it derives from [botin], old French word for boot.
Kundura too derives from Ottoman. It comes from the Greek word for shoe according to Redhouse, Turkce-Osmalica Sozlugu. It would have been used in Turkey in Ottoman times.
Baston is definetely French in origin, it comes from old French Baston, or new french bāton which denotes walking stick or cane.
So these words are French and Greek in origin but we inherited them or borrowed them not directly from these languages but through Ottoman. They are therefore Ottoman in origin but by extension French or Greek. |
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Bullika
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| Dhavlos wrote: |
| Bullika wrote: |
| Cypriot Turkish is of course very heavily influenced by Kypriaka, without a doubt. But it has other influences too and it is not an imitation of Kypriaka, a pirated copy- it has its own integrity as well. |
I didnt mean to say that kibriaka is the only influence...im saying they are mutually influenced by each other...
(PS milk is gala/yala )
ok...enough of kibriaka...back to kibrizlija |
No I know, but I just felt that I needed to make the point clear. Gibrizlidja is a Turkic language, like Turkish, Azeri, Turkmen that belongs to the Oghuz branch. Unlike these languages however, its structure, syntax is influenced by Indo-European languages.
So.
Seni Seviyorum (Turkish) - I love you.
Seni Sevirem (Azeri) - I love you.
Severim Seni (Gibrizlidja) -I love you.
Notice how the subject/verb (Severim) comes first in Gibrizlidja, as it does in English, then it is followed by the object (seni) |
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Bullika
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| Quote: |
Seni Seviyorum (Turkish) - I love you.
Seni Sevirem (Azeri) - I love you.
Severim Seni (Gibrizlidja) -I love you. |
On a different point, Notice hw both Azeri and Gibrizlidja uses the Aorist tense as opposed to the present progressive tense -iyor.
This is because -iyor (within Turkic languages) is specific to Anatolian Turkish, and developed exclusively in Anatolia after the settlement of Cyprus in 1571-1572. So that explains why we (those of us who speak Gibrizlidja) seldom use it. Of course over the last 30 years this is changing.
In Azeri similarly, the -iyor tense (pr progressive) did not develop because Azerbaijan was ruled by Persia and later by Russia, so it was effectively cut off from anatolian Turkish. |
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Bullika
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| Bullika wrote: |
| Dhavlos wrote: |
| Bullika wrote: |
| Cypriot Turkish is of course very heavily influenced by Kypriaka, without a doubt. But it has other influences too and it is not an imitation of Kypriaka, a pirated copy- it has its own integrity as well. |
I didnt mean to say that kibriaka is the only influence...im saying they are mutually influenced by each other...
(PS milk is gala/yala )
ok...enough of kibriaka...back to kibrizlija |
No I know, but I just felt that I needed to make the point clear. Gibrizlidja is a Turkic language, like Turkish, Azeri, Turkmen that belongs to the Oghuz branch. Unlike these languages however, its structure, syntax is influenced by Indo-European languages.
So.
Seni Seviyorum (Turkish) - I love you.
Seni Sevirem (Azeri) - I love you.
Severim Seni (Gibrizlidja) -I love you.
Notice how the subject/verb (Severim) comes first in Gibrizlidja, as it does in English, then it is followed by the object (seni) |
Just to add here, either the Turkish Cypriots adopted this syntactic struture from Greek or English, although Greek is more plausible or
heres a different possiblity, its a little controversial for some people, but i love controversy.....
Maybe, just maybe, the people from whom Gibrizlidja derives, were NEWCOMERS to the Turkish language. In other words they learnt it as I would learn a foreign language, but retained (accidently or purposely) some aspects of their previous language (Greek / Cypriot Arabic / Italian??) and that is why this structure syntactic exists.
In other words it is a old form Turkish spoken by and mutiliated by Greek/Italian or Cypriot Arabic speakers, who could not fully adjust to the different syntactic structure of Turkish, which to most Indo-european language speakers is the opposite of the way they speak. |
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Birkibrisli
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Memo,some more gibrizlica for you:
Sana in some regions (Baf) becomes saga (hard g of course) but in other regions (Limasol?) it is "saa".
Sonra ------>Sogram or Sovram
insanlar -------->ingsannar
giymek-------->geymek and inmek--------->enmek
daha ------>taha (this time d becomes t!)
Also have you noticed how we put "cik" at the end of everything
ekmek ---->egmecik; ibne ------>ipnecik
Calishmak (to work) bizde ishlemek olarak gecher.
Fabrika ----->hapriga or havriga
and....remember BANDABULIYA?????
More to come,memo...my old brain is working again!!! |
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Bullika
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Memo,some more gibrizlica for you:
Sana in some regions (Baf) becomes saga (hard g of course) but in other regions (Limasol?) it is "saa".
Sonra ------>Sogram or Sovram
insanlar -------->ingsannar
giymek-------->geymek and inmek--------->enmek
daha ------>taha (this time d becomes t!)
Also have you noticed how we put "cik" at the end of everything
ekmek ---->egmecik; ibne ------>ipnecik
Calishmak (to work) bizde ishlemek olarak gecher.
Fabrika ----->hapriga or havriga
and....remember BANDABULIYA?????
More to come,memo...my old brain is working again!!! |
So they really pronounce it in some regions as 'Sagha' or Saga' (g with accent)??
Because 'Sagha' is more like Modern Turkmen, which makes sense because Turkmen weavers were transported to Cyprus to the Baf / Baffo / Pafos area for their skills. |
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Birkibrisli
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Memo:
| Quote: |
Maybe, just maybe, the people from whom Gibrizlidja derives, were NEWCOMERS to the Turkish language. In other words they learnt it as I would learn a foreign language, but retained (accidently or purposely) some aspects of their previous language (Greek / Cypriot Arabic / Italian??) and that is why this structure syntactic exists.
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Now you are talking,Memo...
You don't doubt do you that a lot of Greek-speaking Cypriots converted to Islam during the Ottoman times???Well,they would've had to learn turkish as a foreign language...and in time influenced the language of the Ottoman Turks Don't tell Eric Dayi...let him think his blood is "pure turkish" -whatever that means these days |
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brother
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Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Memo:
| Quote: |
Maybe, just maybe, the people from whom Gibrizlidja derives, were NEWCOMERS to the Turkish language. In other words they learnt it as I would learn a foreign language, but retained (accidently or purposely) some aspects of their previous language (Greek / Cypriot Arabic / Italian??) and that is why this structure syntactic exists.
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Now you are talking,Memo...
You don't doubt do you that a lot of Greek-speaking Cypriots converted to Islam during the Ottoman times???Well,they would've had to learn turkish as a foreign language...and in time influenced the language of the Ottoman Turks Don't tell Eric Dayi...let him think his blood is "pure turkish" -whatever that means these days |
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Bullika
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Memo,some more gibrizlica for you:
Sana in some regions (Baf) becomes saga (hard g of course) but in other regions (Limasol?) it is "saa".
Sonra ------>Sogram or Sovram
insanlar -------->ingsannar
giymek-------->geymek and inmek--------->enmek
daha ------>taha (this time d becomes t!)
Also have you noticed how we put "cik" at the end of everything
ekmek ---->egmecik; ibne ------>ipnecik
Calishmak (to work) bizde ishlemek olarak gecher.
Fabrika ----->hapriga or havriga
and....remember BANDABULIYA?????
More to come,memo...my old brain is working again!!! |
is that Sogram -g with an accent? I havent come acrossd this one yet.
Hapriga or Havriga, I havent heard of this, I looked in a Greek dictionary but couldnt find its origin there. It may be Cypriot Greek? or just a change in prounciation.
It could also, (heres a long shot) come from Spanish. Notice how in Spanish very often F becomes H. Farina > Harina (Flour). |
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Birkibrisli
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
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So they really pronounce it in some regions as 'Sagha' or Saga' (g with accent)??
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You bet...
"Kash defa dedim saga,oturma bre ogle" is pure Baflica.Notice how oyle becomes ogle (again with hard g)...And ch becomes sh...
Oyle oturmamani kach defa soyledim,canikom...
(Istanbul Turkcesi!)
There is no end to this you realise,memo |
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Bullika
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Memo:
| Quote: |
Maybe, just maybe, the people from whom Gibrizlidja derives, were NEWCOMERS to the Turkish language. In other words they learnt it as I would learn a foreign language, but retained (accidently or purposely) some aspects of their previous language (Greek / Cypriot Arabic / Italian??) and that is why this structure syntactic exists.
|
Now you are talking,Memo...
You don't doubt do you that a lot of Greek-speaking Cypriots converted to Islam during the Ottoman times???Well,they would've had to learn turkish as a foreign language...and in time influenced the language of the Ottoman Turks Don't tell Eric Dayi...let him think his blood is "pure turkish" -whatever that means these days |
Of course I dont doubt it. Its obvious there was Greek input, I may even have some Greek backround.
***but listen, it wasnt just Greek input, people become very sloppy with history. They assume that because someone who converts to Islam is a Greek speaker then they are Greek, it doesnt work like that, you have to open and expand your mind. The Maronite and Latin who spoke Greek too their imput was equally heavy. Thats why most Turkish Cypriot villages were either Maronite or Latin villages once.
And Cypriot Arabic, which is very under-studied and researched, I dont think you are familiar with it, is like Gibrizlidja in many ways as it contains a similar syntactic structure which also derives from Greek. So Gibrizlidja could come from here too? If Greek is a possiblity then this is a possiblity too. |
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