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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| SP wrote: |
| Sounds a lot like 1963 and the Samson Coup of 1974. |
What do you mean here????
| SP wrote: |
| 18% is a nominal figure, even Makarios thought that 25% was reasonable |
Makarios thought 25% was reasonable??? Never!!!! Where? When? Under what circumstances? Do you have any reference to that? This is a complete lie! Why 25%? Based on what reasoning? Just becasue you are "Turks"? Just becasue you "won" the "war"? Where is this based?  |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
I cite the case of EU-candidate Croatia... founded in the Yugoslav civil war, which conducted mass ethnic cleansing against the ethnic Serb inhabitants of Krayina, who continue to live in refugee camps in Belgrad. However, because it was recognised from the outset by a sponsor state (Germany), today it is recognised as a legal state and is an EU candidate.
As for claiming back the lost lands of the north in war, c'mon yourself. You know that this will never be possible, no-one would support you in such a venture and that the Republic of Cyprus will never possess the resources to do so, at least so long as the Turkish government supports the Turkish Cypriot inhabitants of the island. Morally, I do believe that Greek Cypriots deserve to return to their land, however, after 40 years it would be equally immoral to dispossess children who have grown up living in stolen properties of everything they have ever known. Effectively you will simply create a new generation of refugees.
For the record, I don't think Eric Dayi represents majority opinion in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. But the longer things remain as they are today, and the longer that Turkish Cypriots feel that the Greek Cypriot authorities don't represent their aspirations, the more people like Dayi will be listened to, and the more likely partition will be the ultimate outcome. |
Keep trying Moose! Soon you will also be nominated the lawyer of the year by the Turkish lobby in the UK, and be awarded the medal like Cherie Blair was a couple of weeks ago! I noticed that you do not ever put the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" in inverted commas, as if it has already been recognized as such! So much is our eagerness! |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5355
Location: National Forest, England
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| Quote: |
His Beatitude replied that he had in mind the criteria which were mentioned, but these could lead also to an area of 50%. "Consequently", His Beatitude added, take into consideration your criteria and state what you propose with regard to territory because the territorial aspect is most significant. Certainly equally significant are also the principles of freedom of movement, freedom of settlement, respect of ownership and home. I have already declared that I am ready to examine any form of solution either multiregional or bizonal and I propose an area of 20% of the territory of the Republic to be under Turkish Cypriot administration, i.e. a percentage of area based on the ratio of the population. It must, however, be understood that each proposal is under the condition that it becomes binding if a total agreement is reached on all the issues.
Denktash pressed by Makarios, replied. "Since you insist I mention a percentage, I say 32.8% which corresponds to Turkish Cypriot ownership of land." When His Beatitude stated that there was a very great and unbridgeable gap, Denktash observed "This percentage is negotiable, it remains open for discussion."
His Beatitude, stressing again that the distance was too great, observed: "There are hopes of an agreement being reached if the negotiation on the territory is limited within the framework of 20% - 25%".
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http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/makarios-denktash%20talks,%2077.htm |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5355
Location: National Forest, England
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Keep trying Moose! Soon you will also be nominated the lawyer of the year by the Turkish lobby in the UK, and be awarded the medal like Cherie Blair was a couple of weeks ago! I noticed that you do not ever put the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" in inverted commas, as if it has already been recognized as such! So much is our eagerness! |
 I wondered how long it would be before you labelled me as a Turkish Cypriot lobbyist...
As for putting the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus in inverted commas, no, I won't, not because I recognise its legitimacy, but because I recognise that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is there. Placing its title in inverted commas is a petty attempt to depict it as nonexistent and is not a practice that I adhere to. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
| Quote: |
His Beatitude replied that he had in mind the criteria which were mentioned, but these could lead also to an area of 50%. "Consequently", His Beatitude added, take into consideration your criteria and state what you propose with regard to territory because the territorial aspect is most significant. Certainly equally significant are also the principles of freedom of movement, freedom of settlement, respect of ownership and home. I have already declared that I am ready to examine any form of solution either multiregional or bizonal and I propose an area of 20% of the territory of the Republic to be under Turkish Cypriot administration, i.e. a percentage of area based on the ratio of the population. It must, however, be understood that each proposal is under the condition that it becomes binding if a total agreement is reached on all the issues.
Denktash pressed by Makarios, replied. "Since you insist I mention a percentage, I say 32.8% which corresponds to Turkish Cypriot ownership of land." When His Beatitude stated that there was a very great and unbridgeable gap, Denktash observed "This percentage is negotiable, it remains open for discussion."
His Beatitude, stressing again that the distance was too great, observed: "There are hopes of an agreement being reached if the negotiation on the territory is limited within the framework of 20% - 25%".
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http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/makarios-denktash%20talks,%2077.htm |
I knew you would have given me that argument and i was waiting for you.
I knew you didn't know what you have been talking about!
Now, is the above text taken from a discussion in which partition was discussed and /or negotiated, or is it taken from a discussion in which a bi-zonal federal solution was discussed /negotiated? Of course it is not from a discussion in which partition was negotiated, but instead a federal solution, after 1974! Do you know that within the context of such a solution, and based on the UN SC resolutions, all G/C refugees whose homes and properties were going to fell within this territorial percentage, were also assumed to be permitted to return under T/C federal state administration, and with all their rights being safeguarded and respected?
Is this what we have been talking about here? Or we have instead been talking about complete and formalized partition, and what territorial percentage should the T/C community rightfully obtain, exclusively for its own people? |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Tell me now that based on your above attempt, you do not deserve to be branded as a T/C lobbyist! |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5355
Location: National Forest, England
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Oh high and mighty Kifeas as usual. You really are unbelievably childish at times with your attempts at points-scoring...
Where did SP mention the 25% figure involving partition? Nowhere... and being similarly picky as you, you did not ask for proof of Makarios sanctioning the allocation of 25% of land to the Turkish Cypriots as part of a partition plan. As you can see from this text, during the 1977 meetings Makarios did consider allocating 25% of Cyprus to the Turkish Cypriot federal state as within the boundaries of reality.
As for me 'not knowing what I'm talking about', that's your opinion. I know of people with far greater international credibility than you who do regard me as someone who does know what he is talking about. I respect their opinions immeasurably more than I do the statements of someone with credibility only amongst his friends and relatives.
Last edited by cannedmoose on Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
Oh high and mighty Kifeas as usual. You really are unbelievably childish at times with your attempts at points-scoring...
Where did SP mention the 25% figure involving partition? Nowhere... and being similarly picky as you, you did not ask for proof of Makarios sanctioning the allocation of 25% of land to the Turkish Cypriots as part of a partition plan. As you can see from this text, during the 1977 meetings Makarios did consider allocating 25% of Cyprus to the Turkish Cypriot federal state as within the boundaries of reality.
As for me 'not knowing what I'm talking about', that's your opinion. I know of people with far greater international credibility than you who do regard me as someone who does know what he is talking about. I respect their opinions immeasurably more than I do the statements of someone with credibility only amongst his friends and relatives. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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This is what SP had asked me, which posting initiated the whole discussion with him.
| SP wrote: |
Kifeas
Does this mean that you support partition on an 18 / 82 split??? |
This is what I replied to him
| Kifeas wrote: |
| SP wrote: |
Kifeas
Does this mean that you support partition on an 18 / 82 split??? |
No, I do not support any partition whatsoever. However, I have to respect the right of the majority of the T/Cs (if there is such a majority,) that wish to hate me as a G/C, that do not wish to share the same homeland with me as a G/C, and who do not wish for their own reasons to regard me as their compatriot, and instead they prefer to regard the Turks from Turkey as their compatriots. If this is what the majority of the T/Cs believe and or prefer then tough luck. I have to respect their choices! However, if this is the case, if this is the will of the T/Cs, it is only decent if they at least propose and /or be ready to accept that together with their desires for partition which I will have to respect, that their share in this country is no more than 18% of the territory of Cyprus, and to at least propose this together with their partition desires. Only then I would regard them as decent and honest people. What they are doing however, is exactly the opposite. They propose or demand partition, for their own hilarious reasons in my opinion, but at the same time they mean or wish to keep the entire or most of the excessive territory that Turkey occupies today. This is what makes the dishonest, insincere, hypocritical and opportunistic, and this is why under such circumstances the G/C might not have a choice in the future other than to seize the right moment and /or opportunity to declare a war against them so that they undo they injustice that the T/Cs wish to inflict upon them. |
And this is what he asked me upon this.
| SP wrote: |
Sounds a lot like 1963 and the Samson Coup of 1974.
18% is a nominal figure, even Makarios thought that 25% was reasonable |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| SP wrote: |
| Sounds a lot like 1963 and the Samson Coup of 1974. |
What do you mean here????
| SP wrote: |
| 18% is a nominal figure, even Makarios thought that 25% was reasonable |
Makarios thought 25% was reasonable??? Never!!!! Where? When? Under what circumstances? Do you have any reference to that? This is a complete lie! Why 25%? Based on what reasoning? Just becasue you are "Turks"? Just becasue you "won" the "war"? Where is this based? |
Evidently, we have both been talking about complete partition, and not about a solution based on reunification based on the concept of a BB federation.
Last edited by Kifeas on Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5355
Location: National Forest, England
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Tell me now that based on your above attempt, you do not deserve to be branded as a T/C lobbyist! |
Given that I lend no credence to your opinion, you are free to label me a Turkish Cypriot lobbyist if you wish to. Given also that you lend no credence to my opinions, I will also call you a Greek Cypriot propagandist, blinkered by years of media-driven spin and by your own status as a refugee. The difference is that I try and understand where your opinions come from, whereas you simply try to belittle mine. Anyway, as I said earlier, this is obviously a dialogue of the deaf, so there is no purpose in wasting my time with you any further. Dealing with the nonsense you have created has already wasted too much of my time today. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| Tell me now that based on your above attempt, you do not deserve to be branded as a T/C lobbyist! |
Given that I lend no credence to your opinion, you are free to label me a Turkish Cypriot lobbyist if you wish to. |
In the absence of arguments, we pretend the offended so that we can run away! |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5355
Location: National Forest, England
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| In the absence of arguments, we pretend the offended so that we can run away! |
No, in the absence of arguments, we use our fists. However, unlike you I don't threaten others with violence, I am man enough to accept differences and walk away with grace and honour intact.
As for offending me, I'm only offended by those for whom I hold a modicum of respect... you're not included on that list unfortunately... used to be, but no longer. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| Tell me now that based on your above attempt, you do not deserve to be branded as a T/C lobbyist! |
Given that I lend no credence to your opinion, you are free to label me a Turkish Cypriot lobbyist if you wish to. Given also that you lend no credence to my opinions, I will also call you a Greek Cypriot propagandist, blinkered by years of media-driven spin and by your own status as a refugee. The difference is that I try and understand where your opinions come from, whereas you simply try to belittle mine. Anyway, as I said earlier, this is obviously a dialogue of the deaf, so there is no purpose in wasting my time with you any further. Dealing with the nonsense you have created has already wasted too much of my time today. |
Reeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!
Why shouldn't I also be offended if you just decided arbitrarily to award exclusively to the T/C community 25% of the territory of Cyprus, when they are only 18% of the population (now they are not even that much, perhaps 14% only,) and their private land ownership was only 12.3% of the total territory and if you add their fair analogy from the state owned land, it becomes only 17% of the territory? Only you have the capricious right to be offended? I do not???? |
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Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3498
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
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| Geez .....keep the whole island if you would just give it a rest for a moment. |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5355
Location: National Forest, England
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If I were in the position to offer 25% of Cyprus to the Turkish Cypriots, then certainly you should be offended... perhaps you might also try to assassinate me. However, thankfully for you, I will never be in such a position and would never savour such a position either. IMO, the Cyprus problem is for the Cypriots alone to sort out, I can shout from the sidelines what I think is a viable solution, but the only real solution is one worked out for Cypriots, by Cypriots, with the rest of the world only there to support their efforts.
My sincere hope is that one day you do get back your land in Lapithos, just as I hope that my uncle also gets his land back in Lapithos, my brother-in-law gets his land back in Angastina and my koumbaros gets his land back in Kyrenia. Sadly, for most of you, I don't think this will happen, especially with the current generation of leaders in Cyprus. |
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