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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| magikthrill wrote: |
| Do any of you feel that seeing how the Greek Cypriots got screwed over with the A-Plan if only one of their demands were satisfied to the fullest extent (probably right of return since this is the most important i feel) then the other two could be bypassed by only slight changes? Taking also into account the desparation for a solution to this problem. |
I don't think so Magikthrill ...
Besides, it is impossible to totally satisfy the Greek Cypriot right of return demand, because, even if you have lax residence rules and full property restitution, most Greek Cypriots would still hesitate to go and live under Turkish Cypriot administration. Only a unitary state would totally satisfy the Greek Cypriot right of return demand.
Thus, even with the "best" Federal solution, the right of return demand would only be partly satisfied.
The security demands of the Greek Cypriots cannot be fully satisfied either, because the Turkish Cypriots would never accept a "zero role" for Turkey in the Security of Cyprus. Again here, the best we can have is a compromise the Greek Cypriots can live with, not full satisfaction.
The Settlers demand is probably the only one that could, theoretically at least, be fully satisfied. It is feasible for all settlers to leave (inter-marriages excluded ofcourse), to be relocated by the Turkish Government at their place of origin, and the Turkish Cypriots could live with this - though they wouldn't like it.
To recap, I think the best solution we can have, from a Greek Cypriot point of view, is:
right of return - Partial satisfaction
Security - Partial Satisfaction
Settlers - Full Satisfaction.
Such a solution, I believe, would procure a strong Yes from the Greek Cypriots, and from the Turkish Cypriots as well.
As you say, the "desperation factor" would also work in favour of people voting Yes. |
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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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Erol,
shouldn't this topic be moved to the "proposed solutions to Cyprus Problem" forum? |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 631
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Right of return means the right for one to return not the forceful relocatino back to your ancestral homes. Under a segregated state the Greek Cypriots can still have the option to move to the other state but they dont have to take this option.
Who is going to pay for the relocation of all these settlers? |
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MicAtCyp
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
| The Annan plan was seamlessly perfect in satisfying Turkish Cypriot concerns, not just on the property issue, but also power sharing at the Federal Government, strength of bizonality, Turkish security guarantees, political autonomy of the Turkish Cypriot component state, and more . . . |
| wrote: |
The other "big one" as far as the Greek Cypriots are concerned, is Security. The Greek Cypriots did not want Turkey to have a role in the security system of re - united Cyprus. Certainly not a primary and permanent role.
. . . and the Settlers of course. |
Alex, aren’t you forgetting once again to mention that the Anan Plan was far from satisfying the Greek Cypriots regarding their own properties? People need to get their properties back and do whatever they like with them either they return or not. Any solution that will not satisfy that is guaranteed to be rejected for ever and ever. |
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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| magikthrill wrote: |
| Right of return means the right for one to return not the forceful relocatino back to your ancestral homes. Under a segregated state the Greek Cypriots can still have the option to move to the other state but they dont have to take this option. |
Yes, theoretically they could have the option of return under Turkish Cypriot administration, but for the majority of Greek Cypriots this will be equivalent to not giving them the option at all - most Greek Cypriots experience a huge block at the notion that they might "live under Turkish Cypriot administration" ...
| magikthrill wrote: |
| Who is going to pay for the relocation of all these settlers? |
The government of Turkey should bear all settler-related costs.
The solution will cost billions even without the settlers problem - relocation of affected Turkish Cypriots, compensations, structural adjustments. Cyprus can not afford to pay for the settlers as well. |
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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| MicAtCyp wrote: |
| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
| The Annan plan was seamlessly perfect in satisfying Turkish Cypriot concerns, not just on the property issue, but also power sharing at the Federal Government, strength of bizonality, Turkish security guarantees, political autonomy of the Turkish Cypriot component state, and more . . . |
| wrote: |
The other "big one" as far as the Greek Cypriots are concerned, is Security. The Greek Cypriots did not want Turkey to have a role in the security system of re - united Cyprus. Certainly not a primary and permanent role.
. . . and the Settlers of course. |
Alex, aren’t you forgetting once again to mention that the Anan Plan was far from satisfying the Greek Cypriots regarding their own properties? People need to get their properties back and do whatever they like with them either they return or not. Any solution that will not satisfy that is guaranteed to be rejected for ever and ever. |
MicAtCyp, please follow the discussion more carefully before intervening.
The reason I said, "the other big one", was because we had already established in the discussion that right of return - the right of return - is a primary concern for the Greek Cypriots. In the post in question, I was trying to define what other issues are critical for Greek Cypriots, as well as the Right of Return. |
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MicAtCyp
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
MicAtCyp, please follow the discussion more carefully before intervening.
The reason I said, "the other big one", was because we had already established in the discussion that right of return - the right of return - is a primary concern for the Greek Cypriots. In the post in question, I was trying to define what other issues are critical for Greek Cypriots, as well as the Right of Return. |
Sorry but the right of return and the right of getting back your property are not identical issues, nor they are mutually inclussive or exclussive.I did follow the discussion very carefully.Unless of course you advocate that those who return will be the only ones who are entitled to get their properties back which of course is a totally different issue.Which will result in measures that will discourage anyone to return, so that he loses his properties on top of everything.
I advocate that either someone returns or not he should be free to keep his properties and do whatever he likes with them. |
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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| MicAtCyp wrote: |
| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
MicAtCyp, please follow the discussion more carefully before intervening.
The reason I said, "the other big one", was because we had already established in the discussion that right of return - the right of return - is a primary concern for the Greek Cypriots. In the post in question, I was trying to define what other issues are critical for Greek Cypriots, as well as the Right of Return. |
Sorry but the right of return and the right of getting back your property are not identical issues, nor they are mutually inclussive or exclussive.I did follow the discussion very carefully.Unless of course you advocate that those who return will be the only ones who are entitled to get their properties back which of course is a totally different issue.Which will result in measures that will discourage anyone to return, so that he loses his properties on top of everything.
I advocate that either someone returns or not he should be free to keep his properties and do whatever he likes with them. |
My position is that every refugee should be entitled to his property in the Turkish Cypriot component state, unless:
a) The Turkish Cypriot who currently uses it wishes to exchange for it his own property in the south.
b) There has been investment in the property in question, and the value of the investment itself is more than the original value of the property. (e.g $ 30,000 investment on $80,000 property, the original owner keeps it. $100,000 investment on $70,000 property, the current occupant keeps it)
In the case where a Greek Cypriot refugee is not thus entitled to his original residence, he should be entitled to a new home in the same town or village.
Compensation for all properties that will not be returned, should be in such a form as to be easily convertible to cash.
The method that will be used to effect these exchanges (property board, special courts, free market etc.) does not concern me, so long as it is secure, efficient, and without negative side effects in the functioning of the economy. I'll let the experts work out the details.
As for the popular Greek Cypriot idea that "all properties must be returned", I think it is unreal and one-sided. Are we going to re-house all the Turkish Cypriots in government housing? Or send them packing to their pre-1963 villages?
Sorry, but a solution has to be a compromise between the desires and concerns of the two sides. Just like I do not accept that the Turkish Cypriots should "have it all their way" in the matter of Security (as they did in the Annan Plan), I similarly do not accept that the Greek Cypriots should "have it all their way" in the matter of property restitution rights. |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 631
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| What about rent for the years of use of refugees (both Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots) property? |
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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| magikthrill wrote: |
| What about rent for the years of use of refugees (both Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots) property? |
Yes, I would agree that "paying rent" or "giving compensation for loss of use" is only fair to all those refugees who have spent so many years living in government housing at the limits of poverty ...
In the Annan Plan, there was provision for such "rent" or "compensation" to be paid, but sadly the responsibility was placed on the shoulders of the constituent state of which one was a citizen. In other words, Greek Cypriots would be compensated by the Greek Cypriot component state and Turkish Cypriots by the Turkish Cypriot component state ...
This was probably one of the most offensive aspects of the Plan in the Greek Cypriot mindset: "You mean we are going to pay for our own compensation ?"
Really, such compensation, or rent, should be paid by the beneficiaries, those who actually used the property: At the very least, if we do not wish to burden private individuals, the Turkish Cypriot component state should pay for the rent/compensation of Greek Cypriots, and the Greek Cypriot component state should pay for the rent/compensation of Turkish Cypriots.
The level of compensation, I believe, will need to be lower than market rates, otherwise no one will be able to pay so much money.
Also, the compensation should be made up of two parts:
1. Rent for the property, the level of which will depend on the vaue of the property and the years over which one was denied use.
2. "Compensation for emotional injury", which should be a per capita bulk sum, the same for each refugee.
If such provisions are included in the new plan, they will help to convince many people that the new plan is at least fair, and "good for their pockets also" (for many people, especially poverty-stricken refugees, this is a priority). |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
Also, the compensation should be made up of two parts:
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Do you think this compensation plan should also include property lost in the period 63-74 as well as that lost after 74?
I have to mention once again that to me personaly talk of compensating those who lost property without any talk of compensation for those that lost loved ones leaves a somewhat bad taste in my mouth. I personally think that if we are to talk seriously about compensation for those that suffered from the events in Cyprus then to only talk of compensating people for loss of property and ignore the suffering of those that lost loved ones is 'offensive'. |
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Alexandros Lordos
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Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| erolz wrote: |
Do you think this compensation plan should also include property lost in the period 63-74 as well as that lost after 74? |
In principle yes, but an issue must be raised here: Did those who lose property in 1963 do so out of 'force majeure', or was it their own choice? I am sure that for some Turkish Cypriots it was out of their hands, other Turkish Cypriots however simply chose to go and live in enclaves, without anyone forcing them to.
But maybe such a distinction is too subtle and it will cause more problems than it will solve - so we can stick to "people will be compensated from the time they lost control of the property, without examining issues of who was responsible".
| erolz wrote: |
| I have to mention once again that to me personaly talk of compensating those who lost property without any talk of compensation for those that lost loved ones leaves a somewhat bad taste in my mouth. I personally think that if we are to talk seriously about compensation for those that suffered from the events in Cyprus then to only talk of compensating people for loss of property and ignore the suffering of those that lost loved ones is 'offensive'. |
To an extent I agree with you ... but do you think offering monetary compensation for loss of loved ones will go down well with people, or will this also leave a "bitter after taste". How much will losing a parent, or a child, be "worth"? 2000 pounds? 5000 pounds? 10000 pounds?
Your own "positive action" ideas - cleaning up cemetaries etc. - is probably a "better" way to compensate for loss of loved ones, compared to cash. If for instance, Turkish Cypriot component state authorities build monuments in the memory of Greek Cypriots who got killed, and Greek Cypriot component state authorities build monuments for Turkish Cypriots who got killed, that would be "good compensation" also ...
Removing monuments that glorify events in which people of the other community got killed, is also "good compensation" ... |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
| To an extent I agree with you ... but do you think offering monetary compensation for loss of loved ones will go down well with people, or will this also leave a "bitter after taste". How much will losing a parent, or a child, be "worth"? 2000 pounds? 5000 pounds? 10000 pounds? |
Yes to some any offer of monetary compensation for the loss of a loved one will be an 'insult' but then so is the offer of no compensation what so ever imo. Of course you can not put a monetary value on someones life, yet this is done the world over in many different senarios none the less
On the wider issue of 'non monetary' compensation I would like to use my aunt's situation to futher explain why I think we must also consider monetary compenasation for those that lost loved ones.
As some of you know my aunt lost her huband in 1964 to extremists. Her husband was not an extremist, was not a member of TMT but was an innocent victim of the Cyprus problem. After 1974 my aunt was 'given' a property in North Cyprus that was Greek Cypriot pre 74. An article related to this can be found here
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=16072&archive=1
So if we imagine a senario where monetary compensation is to be paid for use of property and by 'beneficiaries' of that use of property, this would mean a finaical burden on my Aunt. Yet I would argue that , her pain and suffering, her emotional distress and the hardships she and her children suffered from losing her husband in 64 far outweigh the emotional distress of those Greek Cypriot who lost use of the property she now lives in. Yet under such a system of compensation that you suggest, that includes compensation for 'emotional distress', she would end up will a bill to compensate others for their 'emotional distress', whislt herself recieve nothing for her longer standing (and I respectfully suggest greater) 'emotional dsitress'. This to me seems grossly unfair.
I would also note that despite all the efforts on missing persons and pledges made by indivduals in the cyprus mail article referred to above, my aunt and her children and family, still to this day do not know where her husbands remains lay. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
| To an extent I agree with you ... but do you think offering monetary compensation for loss of loved ones will go down well with people, or will this also leave a "bitter after taste". How much will losing a parent, or a child, be "worth"? 2000 pounds? 5000 pounds? 10000 pounds? |
Yes to some any offer of monetary compensation for the loss of a loved one will be an 'insult' but then so is the offer of no compensation what so ever imo. Of course you can not put a monetary value on someones life, yet this is done the world over in many different senarios none the less
On the wider issue of 'non monetary' compensation I would like to use my aunt's situation to futher explain why I think we must also consider monetary compenasation for those that lost loved ones.
As some of you know my aunt lost her huband in 1964 to extremists. Her husband was not an extremist, was not a member of TMT but was an innocent victim of the Cyprus problem. After 1974 my aunt was 'given' a property in North Cyprus that was Greek Cypriot pre 74. An article related to this can be found here
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=16072&archive=1
So if we imagine a senario where monetary compensation is to be paid for use of property and by 'beneficiaries' of that use of property, this would mean a finaical burden on my Aunt. Yet I would argue that , her pain and suffering, her emotional distress and the hardships she and her children suffered from losing her husband in 64 far outweigh the emotional distress of those Greek Cypriot who lost use of the property she now lives in. Yet under such a system of compensation that you suggest, that includes compensation for 'emotional distress', she would end up will a bill to compensate others for their 'emotional distress', whislt herself recieve nothing for her longer standing (and I respectfully suggest greater) 'emotional dsitress'. This to me seems grossly unfair.
I would also note that despite all the efforts on missing persons and pledges made by indivduals in the cyprus mail article referred to above, my aunt and her children and family, still to this day do not know where her husbands remains lay. |
Ok Erol, in principle I fully agree with you. Who do you suggest should pay out compensation to all those that lost loved ones?
During the period between 1963 –1968, it is estimated that about 700-750 Turkish Cypriots lost their lives and about 300-350 Greek Cypriots. During and after the invasion of 1974, about 600-650 Turkish Cypriots lost their lives and about 5,000 Greek Cypriots (including around 1,500 service men and around 1,500 on the missing list) lost their lives. I do not include in this figure those 300-350 Greek Cypriots who lost their lives during the coup and I also do no naturally count the around 2,000 Turkish troops that got killed during the invasion.
Who should pay the Turkish Cypriots and who should pay the Greek Cypriots?
PS: I also have two uncles and 3 cousins (2 first cousins and 1 second,) who got killed in Lapithos, Karavas and Kyrenia. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Ok Erol, in principle I fully agree with you. Who do you suggest should pay out compensation to all those that lost loved ones? |
I do not know. I have no easy or obvious answers
| Kifeas wrote: |
Who should pay the Turkish Cypriots and who should pay the Greek Cypriots? |
Again I do not know the answer to this question. I guess somwehere in the back of my mind is the idea that we simply forget compensation for past events and concentrate on the future. Though clearly this is less than ideal and unjust and probably disproportionately unfair to the two communities. Again I have no easy answers.
| Kifeas wrote: |
PS: I also have two uncles and 3 cousins (2 first cousins and 1 second,) who got killed in Lapithos, Karavas and Kyrenia. |
For what it is worth you have my sincere condolances for your families loss  |
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