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Bullika
Warnings : 1
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 3025
Location: World
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| garbitsch wrote: |
But many people in Azerbaijan considers Azeri as "Azeri Turkcesi". The decision to make it a language came during the Soviet era, I guess. Soviets even created a "Moldovian" language, just to create an artificial Moldovian nation, which was obviously Romanian. And the language both nations speak are the same.
Even Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are all similar languages, but it was all politics since these languages were not called with one name.
But why do we need such political decision to alienate our accent from the standard Turkish as Kibrislica? We can still protect our accent without making it an official language! The linguists do not consider Moldavian a seperate language, sure they won't do the same for Cypriot Turkish accent. |
we are not alienating it, we are celebrating it, it is not apart of turkish, it is not an object that belongs to anybody, it exists as independent as all languages do.
its not just an accent though is it, there is much more to it than pronunciation, we have differences in grammar, semantics, syntax, morphology and also regional variations of gibrizlija too.
i dont know about the case of moldovian, but in some cases there are no regional variations, yet two separate languages for political reasons, you are right to point this out. when confronted with these circumstances, you cannot consider either language sepatate, maybe this is the case with moldovan, i dont know.
however, equally important are languages with substantial regional variation that are ignored, treated as inferior or even in extreme cases banned for political reasons and this wrong. these languages often do not carry prestige are not standardized or are spoken by a tiny number of people. i believe this is happening in cyprus where a Turkish Cypriot govt that is always going to be pro-ankara will never address legitimate linguistic demands of its own people as it may be considered as disrespectful or ungrateful by her protector.
Maybe Croatian and Serbian are the same language separated by religion or politics but there are definitely regional differences between gibrizlija and turkish, this is clear. as a turksh-cypriot i can only comment on my own language and those that i know.
Last edited by Bullika on Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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zan
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Bullika
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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| Even if it is called Kibris Turkcasi or Turkcesi it doesnt cancel out its right to call itself a language, as I stated above Azeri was known as Turki or Turc ajemi for a long time or Azerbaycan Turkcesi as Garbitsch rightly pointed out but it is still a language. |
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cypezokyli
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i can also understand some of this  |
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zan
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Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
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| When you look at the language as a whole only one structure can be deemed to be grammatically correct. Whether you have a variation or different regional dialect it does not matter. There can only be one correct structure. Any language will naturally evolve with more and more words added to it as dialects dictate but these are single words and cannot effect the structure. |
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Bullika
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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Hi
| Quote: |
| However I have to ask Bullika, is things like 'geordie english' or 'scottish english' a seperate language or just a dialect fo English? |
They are languages in the abstract but as far as Geordie is concerned it is a dialect when going into detail. They already exist as separate to English but are naturally influenced by it. Scottish English may not even be a dialect, if you are referring to Scots (are you?) then it is a separate language I think. Atleast thats what it says at the below website.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language (this explains much more)
| Quote: |
| At what point does something stop being a dialect and start to be a seperate language ? |
Not sure what you mean, as dialect is a part of language. Do you mean..
At what point does a dialect stop being a dialect and becomes a stadardized language?
When the dialect is standardized, that means it is taught in schools, road signs appear in that language, official documents from govt departments etc are written in that dialect as are bank statements and its use is protected by law then it is a standardized language. This happened with Istanbul Turkish which became Yeni Turkce, and Azerbaycan turkcesi which became Azeri and Gagavuz Turkcesi which became Gagavuzca and indeed many other Turkic languages.
To answer your question with regards to Gibrizlija, when we are indepenmdent of Turkey and the Greek Cypriots then this will be a slight possibility. Although I am sad to say Turkish Cypriots dont care or value the language they speak, there is stigma attached to speaking it and as a result Gibrizlija is dying on its feet fast. So unless attitudes change there is no hope.
Last edited by Bullika on Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:06 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Bullika
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| zan wrote: |
| When you look at the language as a whole only one structure can be deemed to be grammatically correct. Whether you have a variation or different regional dialect it does not matter. There can only be one correct structure. Any language will naturally evolve with more and more words added to it as dialects dictate but these are single words and cannot effect the structure. |
Yes but why is that zan? why is that the case?
-because one dialect is chosen to be the standardized language, which is considered official and a medium of communication. In England there were many more dialects of English but the English of Wessex was chosen to be official as King Alfred lived there. Very often in history if a king lives in Paris, the local dialect le francien is made official not Occitan or le Picard. Its about prestige.
No theres more to dialect that just words, well...it depends on the dialect of course, but there are many dialects that have their own grammar and alphabet like Macedonian (Skopje for the Greeks), Azeri, and Maltese (which is a dialect of Arabic) and that are official or standardized dialects. i.e there are road signs in these dialects.
However there are standardized languages like Norwegian, Croatian, and Belorussian which are dont have their own grammar or alphabet that is distinct from Denmark, Serbia or Russia yet they are considered separate languages. Like I said it is not a question of whether a language is demmed worthy of being called a language, the situation in the World today is one of anarchy.
We have dialects that are standarized and called separate languages, dialects with a rich history and written scripts that due to political weakness (small population or less military power) are dying, we have separate languages that are not standardized or even banned, or one language that appears as two languages due to politics or distance.
Standardized languages appear due to linguistic rights given to the speakers (like in Spain to Basque and Catalan speakers) or those dialects are supported by a local govt who stadardize it for ptractical reasons and most importantly because they have the pwer to do so.
Last edited by Bullika on Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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zan
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| Yes I agree but when it becomes a problem, as it was in the ottoman era someone has to take control and put a label on it. Attaturk changed the Arabic script and also the structure and set a standard to the language in order to call it Turkish. |
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Bullika
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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| zan wrote: |
| Yes I agree but when it becomes a problem, as it was in the ottoman era someone has to take control and put a label on it. Attaturk changed the Arabic script and also the structure and set a standard to the language in order to call it Turkish. |
Ataturk replaced Osmanlica (Ottoman Turkish) a sociolect (a language used by the elite and royalists that none of the peasants understood) and replaced it with Istanbul Turkish which was standardized (made official). For Istanbul Turkish he chose the latin script. This was a good idea and I resoect Ataturk, why? because Osmanlica was only understood by the pashas and not by the millions of Turks, ordinary folk. By replacing Osmanlica is Yeni Turkce (Istanbul Turkish really) he chose a dialect that was easier to understand, as it contained fewer Persian and Arabic influences which makes Osmanlica hard to understand.
For example in Osmanlica "humble criticisms" is mulhazat-i kasirane (from Persian) but in Istanbul Turkish it is "saygili elestirmeler".
He also made changes to Yeni Turkce that were artificial for nationalistic reasons.
Example
-sal suffix, as in Ulusal or Bolgesel or dugusal from the french -celle
Some of his changes never caught on
Camii became Camisi
Vatan was replaced by Ulus (Kokturkce)
Kitaphane became Kitaplik
even Allah > Tanri |
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osman85
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Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 5
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kıbrıslıca diye bir dil yoktur.
Kıbrısta iki dil vardır bunlar ise Türkçe ve Rumcadır.
Ortak hiç bir kelime yoktur.
Türkçe 5000 yıl öteye varan bir geçmişe sahiptir.
saygılar... |
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city
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 3338
Location: Larnaca area
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Kibrisli
Villager
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Australia - Cyprus
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| osman85 wrote: |
kıbrıslıca diye bir dil yoktur.
Kıbrısta iki dil vardır bunlar ise Türkçe ve Rumcadır.
Ortak hiç bir kelime yoktur.
Türkçe 5000 yıl öteye varan bir geçmişe sahiptir.
saygılar... |
Translation :
There are two main languages in Cyprus - Turkish & Greek
There are no shared words in these 2 languages
Eg. Any such word is either from Turkish or Greek.
The Turkish language has at least 5000 years of evolution. |
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