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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| boomerang wrote: |
| The only reason Turkey does not recognise Republic of Cyprus is because Turkey will be proven as the guilty party, the aggressor and this alone scares the living daylights out of Turkey. |
The reason Turkey does not recognise the Republic of Cyprus is the saem reason it did not recognise it back in 63, ten years before it was the 'guilty party' and the same reason that I personaly also do not recognised it as the sole legitimate government of all of cyprus and all cypriots. The reason is quite simple - an all Greek Cypriot run Republic of Cyprus is against the consitituion of the Republic of Cyprus and without Turkish Cypriot participation is no more than a Greek Cypriot administration and not the sole legitiamte government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots. This was true 10 years before the events of 74 and is still true 30+ years after.
| boomerang wrote: |
Not good Erolz when you contuously take little snipes...It cheapens your argument...This is the second little snipe in what I wish, btw...but who is counting? |
These are not 'snipes'. My perception is that many Greek Cypriot have a view that things that are not the case are the case. Like thinking that UN resolutions that say one thing actually say sonmething else. My perception might be wrong and unfounded and I am more than willing to listen to arguments that they are. However getting on ones high horse to 'dismiss' these perceptions that I have does not show or convince me that they are misplaced. So let me try and be plain and clear here and avoid any perception on your part that I am resorting to 'sniping'. You seem to think - as far as I can tell, that the UN resolutions re the Republic of Northern Cyprus call on all countires to 'have nothing to do with the Republic of Northern Cyprus'. I think they actually call on all countries to not recognise the Republic of Northern Cyprus and I think this is a very different thing. I also suspect that your 'interpretation' is based more on 'wishful thinking' than on any consistent logic. I might be wrong about either of these things and and more than willing to listen to arguments showing that I am wrong about these things. Right now however I am of the belief that the UN resolutions do not say what you think they say and that this is 'wishful thinking'. So please, if you wish, explain why they say why you think they say and/or why your interpretation of them is not based on wishful thinking but on hard evidence and fact. To just say that I am 'sniping' to me avoids the issue that we need to sort out here. Who's interpretation of the UN resolutions is right (or more right) and how did we come to such wrong conclusion, if we did.
| boomerang wrote: |
Well we are going around in circles and yes playing with words...Yes I am coming to your house tonight and I do not recognise you as the occupants...Well I guess thats the norm. |
So you would be happier if the Republic of Cyprus did not care about formal recognition of the Republic of Cyprus as it exists today by Turkey - as long as it had functional recognition (access to ports, airports, air space etc etc) you would be content?
Again this is not 'sniping'. I am trying to understand your position. At the moment it seems to me that as far as the difference between formal recognition of others to the Republic of Northern Cyprus vs functional recognition you see no difference, but I assume that as as far as it relates to the Republic of Cyprus and Turkey you do see a difference? It is this apparent discrepancy that I am trying to understand.
| boomerang wrote: |
Ask yourself where was the Azeri brotherhood the last 31 years...Ask yourself as to why no other Muslim country is following the Azeri lead...
Why not come out and say Turkey is having her arrogant way by means of blackmail and extorsion...We all know this...Making excuses as to what the Azeris are doing ain't going to wash...Believe me Turkey tried via bribes, Gambia case, didn't work and now through blackmail...Who are they trying to fool? |
Blackmail may be the reason and only reason for this move by azerbijan happening now. However another possible reason that it has happened now and not in the previous 30 years is that for the first time in 30 years there was a UN brokered settlement put infront of Cypriots and Turkish Cypriot voted yes to it and Greek Cypriot voted no to it. For the first time in 30 years there is a secretary general of the UN (no matter how competent or incompetent - and by the standards of some of his predessesors I personaly do not see him as the worst SG of UN) that is calling on countries to ease the isolation of Turkish Cypriot.
Personally I think it is almost certainly a combination of pressure and incentives brought to bear by Turkey on Azerbijan AND the change in the 'environment' posts the annan plan vote. It would seem that you think it is is only pressure from Turkey? If that is the case then your own argument applies. Why now and why not in the 31 years before? What is different now than before? It's possible that Turkey managed to increase the pressure over 31 years but I think a much more plausible possibility is that pressure that was insufficent pre the annan vote is actualy sufficent post it.
I am not here to 'snipe' or have 'digs' at people. If ut comes accross that way then I appologise and ask for people to accept that is not my intent. my intent is to understand what 'you' think and why and to try and explain what I think and why. Nothing more and nothing less (and that is quite enough of a task imo). |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
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Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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| Quote: |
| The reason Turkey does not recognise the Republic of Cyprus is the saem reason it did not recognise it back in 63, ten years before it was the 'guilty party' and the same reason that I personaly also do not recognised it as the sole legitimate government of all of cyprus and all cypriots. The reason is quite simple - an all Greek Cypriot run Republic of Cyprus is against the consitituion of the Republic of Cyprus and without Turkish Cypriot participation is no more than a Greek Cypriot administration and not the sole legitiamte government of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots. This was true 10 years before the events of 74 and is still true 30+ years after. |
That’s’s not all Turkey did in 1963…And to be honest with you this is 2005 and the circumstances seemed to have changed a tiny little bit…maybe due to the isolation some people have stuck in a time warp...Well you got the Turkish establishment along with Dektash to thank for all this...Have you heard Makarios speech to the UN...I suggest you listen to it, you might discover something.
| Quote: |
| These are not 'snipes'. My perception is that many Greek Cypriot have a view that things that are not the case are the case. Like thinking that UN resolutions that say one thing actually say sonmething else. My perception might be wrong and unfounded and I am more than willing to listen to arguments that they are. However getting on ones high horse to 'dismiss' these perceptions that I have does not show or convince me that they are misplaced. So let me try and be plain and clear here and avoid any perception on your part that I am resorting to 'sniping'. You seem to think - as far as I can tell, that the UN resolutions re the Republic of Northern Cyprus call on all countires to 'have nothing to do with the Republic of Northern Cyprus'. I think they actually call on all countries to not recognise the Republic of Northern Cyprus and I think this is a very different thing. I also suspect that your 'interpretation' is based more on 'wishful thinking' than on any consistent logic. I might be wrong about either of these things and and more than willing to listen to arguments showing that I am wrong about these things. Right now however I am of the belief that the UN resolutions do not say what you think they say and that this is 'wishful thinking'. So please, if you wish, explain why they say why you think they say and/or why your interpretation of them is not based on wishful thinking but on hard evidence and fact. To just say that I am 'sniping' to me avoids the issue that we need to sort out here. Who's interpretation of the UN resolutions is right (or more right) and how did we come to such wrong conclusion, if we did. |
Yes they are snipes…”Not recognition” from you and “nothing to do with it” from me mean the same thing in my books…Just look over the last 30 years…Which country did not recognise Republic of Northern Cyprus but actually did something with Republic of Northern Cyprus.?...Well does that tell you something?...In my books it says that countries had nothing to do with Republic of Northern Cyprus…And that is what it means…It might be a simplistic view, but never the less it’s reality…On the other hand a lot of Turkish Cypriot seemed to be confused with wordings.
Go ahead and give some examples of the UN resolutions and tell me how you interpret these resolutions and show me some examples…We can debate these in another thread if you like.
| Quote: |
| So you would be happier if the Republic of Cyprus did not care about formal recognition of the Republic of Cyprus as it exists today by Turkey - as long as it had functional recognition (access to ports, airports, air space etc etc) you would be content? |
Yes that would be the next sensible thing to do…At least through business the dialogue will start that will lead to a better situation than today…I do not think backing Turkey in a corner trying to extract concessions is the way to go about it….Doomed for failure in my books.
| Quote: |
| Again this is not 'sniping'. I am trying to understand your position. At the moment it seems to me that as far as the difference between formal recognition of others to the Republic of Northern Cyprus vs functional recognition you see no difference, but I assume that as as far as it relates to the Republic of Cyprus and Turkey you do see a difference? It is this apparent discrepancy that I am trying to understand. |
Have you actually read what you wrote?...Republic of Northern Cyprus is an illegal entity and the Republic of Cyprus is a legal entity…You do not see this?...I am surprised…A little reminder…Republic of Cyprus is one member out of 25 members in the EU...The same club Turkey wants to join…Does this ring a bell?
To make it clearer, and I am not snipping, for you to understand, it’s like this.
RNV=illegal entity
Republic of Cyprus=legal entity.
| Quote: |
Blackmail may be the reason and only reason for this move by azerbijan happening now. However another possible reason that it has happened now and not in the previous 30 years is that for the first time in 30 years there was a UN brokered settlement put infront of Cypriots and Turkish Cypriot voted yes to it and Greek Cypriot voted no to it. For the first time in 30 years there is a secretary general of the UN (no matter how competent or incompetent - and by the standards of some of his predessesors I personaly do not see him as the worst SG of UN) that is calling on countries to ease the isolation of Turkish Cypriot.
Personally I think it is almost certainly a combination of pressure and incentives brought to bear by Turkey on Azerbijan AND the change in the 'environment' posts the annan plan vote. It would seem that you think it is is only pressure from Turkey? If that is the case then your own argument applies. Why now and why not in the 31 years before? What is different now than before? It's possible that Turkey managed to increase the pressure over 31 years but I think a much more plausible possibility is that pressure that was insufficent pre the annan vote is actualy sufficent post it. |
Lets cut through the chase…Blackmail is the reason…Why deny it…How can you sit there and tell me that you did not know the outcome of the referendum when it was announced?...Everybody knew that, apart from Annan, which as we have established is very thick, and Turkey…And you sit there and tell me you had a win…Yeah what a win…Coming from people such as yourself wanting a reunification.
Well sit there and bask in the sun, make sure you wear a hat cos the rays of the sun are very dangerous these days...the first win in 30 years…you should make a poster and frame it on the wall for a constant reminder...Well done
Annan should have kept his mouth shut rather than spreading false hopes to everyone…He knows that what he says does not carry weight…But I guess some Turkish Cypriot were fooled by it…There has to be a resolution and not just words…Why isn't there more countries breaking down the doors to trade or land planes in the Republic of Northern Cyprus?...Because Turkey can't extort any other countries...Remember the fiasco with Gambia?...But no we have to sit here and hear a justification from you as to what you think reality might be.
| Quote: |
| I am not here to 'snipe' or have 'digs' at people. If ut comes accross that way then I appologise and ask for people to accept that is not my intent. my intent is to understand what 'you' think and why and to try and explain what I think and why. Nothing more and nothing less (and that is quite enough of a task imo). |
Those were snipes and you know that…But apology accepted…Yes the reason that I joined this forum from the GT forum is so I could be in a better position to understand the other site…But it seems to me that the Turkish Cypriot have not yet grasped what it means to be part of the EU…IMO in the EU there aren't minority or majority status but human rights…This way every citizens rights are protected....For example look at my situation, I do not want minority rights I want my human rights to be guaranteed by the state...Btw this normal in developed countries...When you talk about minority and majority rights then you are reffering to third world countries...Republic of Cyprus is a developed country unlike Turkey with the Kurds....no snipe intented.
One observation that I see is that the Turkish Cypriot are in the best position possible…they are EU members when it suits them and not when it doesn’t suit them. |
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MicAtCyp
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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| Erol wrote: |
| However let's be as accurate as we can here. What azebijan has proposed / implemented is allowing direct flights and not recognition. |
Erol I beleive you are wrong on this.Direct flights is an action done by states that recognise each other. Exactly the same way like opening your ports and airports to some other country.(Look at the matter of Turkey signing the EU protocol for example. This means they have to open their ports to Republic of Cyprus. Turkey does not say it does not recognise Republic of Cyprus-it says it recognises it as a Greek Cypriot government or something.My point with this parenthesis is that there must be recognition to open your ports or airports)
Besides there is an international Aviation body- don't remember it's name, which I think has something to do with the UN as well- that arranges these matters.Azerbaijan direct flights to the OAs (occupied areas) was refered to that body and Az backed off and promised not to do it again.So now we see the reverse happening i.e the Oas sending direct flights there. I am sure this incident will also be referred to that International body and Az will back off again.
On the other hand it is more than obvious that those flights are not economically viable.How many Turkish Cypriots would ever want to travel to Az and how many Azis would ever want to travel to the Oas??? The whole matter was political in an effort towards recognition.
Talat just recently admitted he is working to secure everything a normal recognition would provide the OAs, without actually asking for an official recognition.In my eyes the only difference between Denktash and Talat is that Denktash thought recognition would come with time, Talat thinks recognition would come if he manages to get everything that indirectly leads to it. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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| MicAtCyp wrote: |
Erol I beleive you are wrong on this.Direct flights is an action done by states that recognise each other. Exactly the same way like opening your ports and airports to some other country.(Look at the matter of Turkey signing the EU protocol for example. This means they have to open their ports to Republic of Cyprus. Turkey does not say it does not recognise Republic of Cyprus-it says it recognises it as a Greek Cypriot government or something.My point with this parenthesis is that there must be recognition to open your ports or airports) |
Tiwan is still not recognised internationaly, it has no seat in the UN etc etc yet has had direct flights for many years now. Does that not show that you can not recognise a state officaly yet still have direct flights with them? |
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thebrix
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 526
Location: London, United Kingdom
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The aviation oracle speaks ... you are right :)
There is a very boring database on the ICAO Web site which shows that anyone can agree to fly directly between A and B - governments, airlines, even international (non-governmental) bodies. (The ICAO Web site is a .int, not a .org, because the ICAO is non-governmental itself).
In practice the first would seem to take precedence over the second and third, but that is not necessarily so; for example, all the agreements involving Indonesia are with Garuda (the state airline), not Indonesia (the government).
I suspect the flights to and from Taiwan, despite its diplomatic status, have been agreed because it was/is overwhelmingly economically important - at least compared with Northern Cyprus :(
Alastair |
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MicAtCyp
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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| erolz wrote: |
| MicAtCyp wrote: |
Erol I beleive you are wrong on this.Direct flights is an action done by states that recognise each other. Exactly the same way like opening your ports and airports to some other country.(Look at the matter of Turkey signing the EU protocol for example. This means they have to open their ports to Republic of Cyprus. Turkey does not say it does not recognise Republic of Cyprus-it says it recognises it as a Greek Cypriot government or something.My point with this parenthesis is that there must be recognition to open your ports or airports) |
Tiwan is still not recognised internationaly, it has no seat in the UN etc etc yet has had direct flights for many years now. Does that not show that you can not recognise a state officaly yet still have direct flights with them? |
And this is exactly why Taiwan is just having what Talat seeks.Everything except official recognition. In fact as far as I know all official documents of Taiwan are acceptable everywhere in the World including shipping and export documents.
In my opinion Taiwan is some sort of a recognised state! |
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erolz
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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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| MicAtCyp wrote: |
And this is exactly why Taiwan is just having what Talat seeks.Everything except official recognition. In fact as far as I know all official documents of Taiwan are acceptable everywhere in the World including shipping and export documents.
In my opinion Taiwan is some sort of a recognised state! |
Yes Taiwan has functional recognition in most areas (though not a seat at the UN). This is the kind of functional recognition Turkey is offering to the the Eu in regards of the Republic of Cyprus pending a comprehaensive settlement. Yet the Republic of Cyprus still wants formal recognition as well.
Yes Talat wants a similar senario for Republic of Northern Cyprus but I believe as a means of easing / ending the isolation of the north (as was promised to the north by many represntatives of international and national bodies) until a settlment can be achieved (and in case it can not) and not as a means of making a solution 'unessesary' from a Turkish Cypriot perspective. |
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antonis
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Joined: 20 Aug 2005
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I think the message from Baku is loud and clear, they don't care about flying to an airport, the country of which does not recognize it as a legal port of entry. For some reason they have more to gain by doing this than they have to lose, or they have no other choice because of other reasons, which is what may be happening.
I think these flights will eventually stop as they are probably not economically viable; Turkish Cypriots are more interested flying west than east, ain't that true? 
Erol, honestly, would you consider flying to Baku? I almost went there when I was working for an oil company... they decided not to send me at the end. |
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erolz
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| antonis wrote: |
Erol, honestly, would you consider flying to Baku? I almost went there when I was working for an oil company... they decided not to send me at the end. |
Without direct flights - no it would not even cross my mind. However as the only place other than Turkey that I can fly direct too from the North and at the right price - possibly. |
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boomerang
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The whole situation is very absurd...How can the Azeris not recognize the occupied areas yet allow direct flights...Why don't they also fly into Karabakh then, and still not recognise it?...
People that live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones
Also stop comparing Taiwan and the occupied areas, its ridiculous...It's like chalk and cheese. |
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erolz
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| boomerang wrote: |
The whole situation is very absurd...How can the Azeris not recognize the occupied areas yet allow direct flights...Why don't they also fly into Karabakh then, and still not recognise it?...
People that live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones |
Your logic seems a bit wierd to me. Any country (entity) can _choose_ to fly direct to any other, recognised or not. Just because it chooses to fly to one unrecognised entity that does not mean it has to fly to every one to not be 'hypocritical', just as choosing to fly direct to one recognised country does not mean you have to fly to every recognised country to not be 'hypocritical'.
| boomerang wrote: |
Also stop comparing Taiwan and the occupied areas, its ridiculous...It's like chalk and cheese. |
Is that an order?
Certainly in many many respects the Republic of Northern Cyprus and Taiwan are like chalk and cheese, but in respect of both being 'states' that are not officaly recognised by other states they are like chalk and chalk or cheese and cheese. At least as far as I can see?
Last edited by erolz on Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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boomerang
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| erolz wrote: |
| boomerang wrote: |
The whole situation is very absurd...How can the Azeris not recognize the occupied areas yet allow direct flights...Why don't they also fly into Karabakh then, and still not recognise it?...
People that live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones |
Your logic seems a bit wierd to me. Any country (entity) can _choose_ to fly direct to any other, recognised or not. Just because it chooses to fly to one unrecognised entity that does not mean it has to fly to every one to not be 'hypocritical', just as choosing to fly direct to one recognised country does not mean you have to fly to every recognised country to not be 'hypocritical'.
| boomerang wrote: |
Also stop comparing Taiwan and the occupied areas, its ridiculous...It's like chalk and cheese. |
Is that an order?
Certainly in many many respects the Republic of Northern Cyprus and Taiwan are like chalk and cheese, but in respect of both being 'states' that are not officaly recognised by other states they are like chalk and chalk or cheese and cheese. At least as far as I can see? |
You gotta be a good scrabble player, you love playing with words, but you suck in understading what has been written.
Buddy...Karabakh is considered to be Azeri land...Wouldn't it stand to reason that they fly there first?...in their own shithole of a country?...for the benefit of their own citizens?...but insteaed they decided to fly in some other unrecognise area...So hard to comprehend?
And as far as Taiwan is concerned do not even go there...You know damn well Taiwan and the occupied territories are not the same, so why go there?...it's laughable when I hear this argument....lol... |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| boomerang wrote: |
You gotta be a good scrabble player, you love playing with words, but you suck in understading what has been written. |
I am a terrible scrabble player because I can not spell. I am a reasonable programmer though because I understand logic.
| boomerang wrote: |
Buddy...Karabakh is considered to be Azeri land...Wouldn't it stand to reason that they fly there first?...in their own shithole of a country?...for the benefit of their own citizens?...but insteaed they decided to fly in some other unrecognise area...So hard to comprehend? |
Azerbijan considers Karabakh to be part of Azerbijan but it is in fact a 'de facto' independent state. Azerbijan flying to Karabakh would stand to no more reason than the Republic of Cyprus flying to the Republic of Northern Cyprus (ignoring the distance - say running ferries if you prefer).
| boomerang wrote: |
And as far as Taiwan is concerned do not even go there...You know damn well Taiwan and the occupied territories are not the same, so why go there?...it's laughable when I hear this argument....lol... |
What argument do you think you are hearing that is so laughable? That Taiwan is comparable to the Republic of Northern Cyprus in general terms? If so you have heard what was not said.
A F1 car is totaly different from a hand trolly in general terms and to say they are the same would be laughable. However in the context of 'things that have wheels' they are comparable and in this context they are the 'same' - they both have wheels. You take the first laughable example and then use it make out the second is also laughable. Your choice I guess but you miss the point in doing so and thus miss potential understanding.
Last edited by erolz on Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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boomerang
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| Quote: |
| I am a terrible scrabble player because I can not spell. I am a reasonable programmer though because I understand logic. |
Yeah if you are a programmer you better stick to 1 and 0 and live politics behind, they require different logic.
| Quote: |
| Azerbijan considers Karabakh to be part of Azerbijan but it is in fact a 'de facto' independent state. Azerbijan flying to Karabakh would stand to no more reason than the Republic of Cyprus flying to the Republic of Northern Cyprus (ignoring the distance - say running ferries if you prefer). |
Hahahah what a come back…missed the whole point.
| Quote: |
What argument do you think you are hearing that is so laughable? That Taiwan is comparable to the Republic of Northern Cyprus in general terms? If so you have heard what was not said.
A F1 car is totaly different from a hand trolly in general terms and to say they are the same would be laughable. However in the context of 'things that have wheels' they are comparable and in this context they are the 'same' - they both have wheels. You take the first laughable example and then use it make out the second is also laughable. Your choice I guess but you miss the point in doing so and thus miss potential understanding. |
So now want me to compare anything that has 4 wheels with an F1 car…what can I say…This is what happens when you deal with 1 and 0 for too long…with all your respect, this belongs in the joke section….Post it there so everyone can have a laugh. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| boomerang wrote: |
Yeah if you are a programmer you better stick to 1 and 0 and live politics behind, they require different logic. |
Logic is a universal. Logic may not be something that is relevant too or that is applied in politicis but it is not something that changes in politics and out sdie of it. Logic is logic.
| boomerang wrote: |
So now want me to compare anything that has 4 wheels with an F1 car…what can I say…This is what happens when you deal with 1 and 0 for too long…with all your respect, this belongs in the joke section….Post it there so everyone can have a laugh. |
If the discussion is about things that have wheels then F1 cars and trolleys are both in this category. You want to have a disucssion about 'things that have wheels' talk about F1 cars and then demand that no one else talks about trolleys, that also have wheels, because they are so different from F1 cars.
If the discussion is about 'can you fly to a country that you do not recognise' then comparrsions between the Republic of Cyprus and Tiawan are completey germaine. If your argument is that you can fly to countries you do not recognise in some situations, depending on the indivdual case and not in others - this would be one thing. However what it appears you want to do is say 'you can not fly to a country you do not recognise' and then when it is shown that many countires do exactly this, you want to 'ban' any such comparrisons and go back to your 'you can not fly to a country you do not recognise' position. This is how it seems to me.
Anyway I am not here to have this kind of discussion in all honesty. I have tried to explain what I think and why and why I personal considere some of your 'statements/positions' to bear more realtion to your desires than to external (to yourt desires) reality. I will leave it at that. You are free to consider my views a joke or not as you wish, as I am free to decide if and when to respond. Right now I see little constructive benefit in continuing this particular discussion. That's probably as much to do with me as it is to do with you, but thats how I feel right now. |
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