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bg_turk
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Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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Location: Bulgaria
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How strong is the influence of religion and the church in the hellenic world?
I hope you will excuse me for the image above. I am in my provocative mood today. I do not doubt your ability to find similar, or even worse image from Turkey.  |
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Dhavlos
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Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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Location: Birmingham
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the short answer is: VERY.
Especially the older generation, and the political elite.
Rememebr also, that the church and the hellenic republic(Greece) are joined...there is no separation of church and state...dont know about cyprus |
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Crash Test Dummy
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Joined: 25 Sep 2005
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Location: London(ish)
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| I know the Church are the richest people in Cyprus. They own the majority of land. |
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cannedmoose
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Location: National Forest, England
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| Given that the Church in Cyprus still has an important say in the education system, I'd say VERY as well... Although, I think as time goes on, its influence will continue to diminish as many young people in Cyprus are far from devout, to find devout believers you really need to look at the older generations now. |
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Bananiot
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Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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There is a movement in Greece, called "State-Church, at last clear roles", which is a pressure group aiming for the separation of the state from the church. In Greece and in Cyprus the individual has no options as far as issues relating to consciousness are concerned. This is because the church is to be found in schools, courts, laws even celebrations, whereas the rest of Europe has solved these problems eons ago.
The movement says that the church identifies itself with the nation because of myths it has helped create and maintain. One such myth is the so called "secret school" that the church says existed during the Ottoman reign in Greece and the so called "leading role" of the church in the Greek revolution in 1821. None of the two are real and the fact is, the Greek church fought savagely the ideas of enlightenment. Also, the Greek church supported every single reactionary regime that ruled over Greece. In the name of all these myths the church identifies itself with the nation and considers every effort to emancipate the Greeks as turning against the church. |
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Kifeas
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Bananiot wrote: |
In Greece and in Cyprus the individual has no options as far as issues relating to consciousness are concerned. This is because the church is to be found in schools, courts, laws even celebrations, whereas the rest of Europe has solved these problems eons ago.
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I am trying to figure out what exactly you have in mind by saying above that in Cyprus the individual has no options as far as issues relating to consciousness are concerned. Can you help me a bit? |
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Kifeas
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
| Given that the Church in Cyprus still has an important say in the education system, I'd say VERY as well... Although, I think as time goes on, its influence will continue to diminish as many young people in Cyprus are far from devout, to find devout believers you really need to look at the older generations now. |
Moose, since you already know that the church in Cyprus has an important say in the education system, can you please explain to us in which ways this important saying is expressed? (Specifically if possible!) |
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Bananiot
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Location: Nicosia
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Simple examples
1. Prayers before starting lessons (to the god of the Greeks - we are the only nation with our own private god).
2. Christening of children
3. Naming of children
4. Funerals (sent to England for cremation etc)
5. The Education Minister always must be approved by the church
6. etc, etc. |
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bg_turk
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Location: Bulgaria
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Alexandros Lordos
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Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| bg_turk wrote: |
How strong is the influence of religion and the church in the hellenic world?
I hope you will excuse me for the image above. I am in my provocative mood today. I do not doubt your ability to find similar, or even worse image from Turkey. |
The image that you have found - which shows a poster with the words "Orthodoxy or Death" written on it - is from an extremist splinter group in which very few people belong. They are not actually violent in the Islamic Fundamentalist sense, but they are deeply claustrophobic and they believe that anyone who does not belong to their particular religious group will go to hell (and this includes even mainstream Orthodox, who in their opinion are under the sway of Satan  )
These people are called "Old-calendarists", because the issue over which they broke off from the mainstream church was the transition into the modern calendar, which took place a century ago, and which, in the minds of these individuals, was ... against God's Will! Just from this you can understand the type of mentality of these people. As a psychologist, I can also say that deeply troubled and ill individuals end up in this group, which is sad because they end up in a far worse state of mind ... |
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Dhavlos
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I always findthis kind of 'extremism' worrying.
The one thing about eoka,which bg hasbrought up....
am i rightin saying that eoka was concerned with independance(and enosis).
But eoka B was concerned with enosis and the end of Turkish Cypriots in cyprus?
what if any, is the actuall difference between the two....cos i often get confused esp. by things Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots say about the twogroups |
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Alexandros Lordos
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Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
| Given that the Church in Cyprus still has an important say in the education system, I'd say VERY as well... Although, I think as time goes on, its influence will continue to diminish as many young people in Cyprus are far from devout, to find devout believers you really need to look at the older generations now. |
Moose, this is not exactly the case. There is a strong neo-religious movement among young people, but with a very different spin than their elders: Instead of interpreting religion in the traditional nationalist sense, they go for a universalist and more spiritual interpretation of Orthodox Christianity. This is actually one of the more hopeful aspects of today's Greek Cypriot youth. Enlightened young bishops, such as Neophytos of Morphou and Athanasios of Limassol, are the leaders and representatives of this new religious movement. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Bananiot wrote: |
Simple examples
1. Prayers before starting lessons (to the god of the Greeks - we are the only nation with our own private god). |
As far as I know this is not the case for a long time now, namely the daily prayer before classes begin. The only thing that occurs is the annual “agiasmos” (benediction) at the beginning of the school year, in which of course no one obliges a pupil /student to participate if they do not wish to or they are not followers of the orthodox faith.
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2. Christening of children
3. Naming of children
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Again, no one obliges anybody to christen (baptise) their children, set aside to name them according to the instructions of the church. I know that many priests raise objections to certain names when parents wish to baptise their children, but this is always overcome in very simple ways. They either threaten the priests that they will not baptise their child at all -as my brother did ones, or they go to the priest of the next village who doesn’t have such prejudices.
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| 4. Funerals (sent to England for cremation etc) |
Perhaps here you have a point. I know the church raises many objections to this issue, but I am not quite sure if the reason this service is not offered in Cyprus yet is due to the objections of the church. It seems to me that the investment that is required for this service (equipment) versus the number of people that would have been interested in using it (market) is the major reason.
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| 5. The Education Minister always must be approved by the church |
Again, I am not sure if this is a case any more than the president himself allows it to be. Are you saying that during the Vasiliou government, who is known not to have been too fond of the bishops, he accepted the intervention of the church in appointing his government's minister(s) of education? In any case, such a practice is not an institutionalized one and therefore it remains entirely on the president whether to seek the opinion of the church or not. |
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cannedmoose
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
| Moose, this is not exactly the case. There is a strong neo-religious movement among young people, but with a very different spin than their elders: Instead of interpreting religion in the traditional nationalist sense, they go for a universalist and more spiritual interpretation of Orthodox Christianity. This is actually one of the more hopeful aspects of today's Greek Cypriot youth. Enlightened young bishops, such as Neophytos of Morphou and Athanasios of Limassol, are the leaders and representatives of this new religious movement. |
Interesting, thanks for that Alex... |
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cannedmoose
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 5. The Education Minister always must be approved by the church |
Again, I am not sure if this is a case any more than the president himself allows it to be. Are you saying that during the Vasiliou government, who is known not to have been too fond of the bishops, he accepted the intervention of the church in appointing his government's minister(s) of education? In any case, such a practice is not an institutionalized one and therefore it remains entirely on the president whether to seek the opinion of the church or not. |
This is what I had in mind when I made my earlier comment. Although I don't think this is as prescribed by the Church as it is in Greece, nonetheless this does constitute direct involvement of the Church in education policy. As someone suspicious of organised religious institutions, it also dismays me that it is Priests who largely teach religious studies lessons in schools, which means that kids don't get a full appreciation of other religions. For example, my wife recalls asking a question in class that contradicted orthodox teaching on a particular issue, in response to which she was thrown out of the classroom by the priest/teacher for daring to utter such heresy, when in reality all she was doing was asking a question as to why the Church held such a position. I dread to think what kind of appreciation of Islam Cypriot youth has if it's taught by these people. |
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