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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
| bg_turk wrote: |
Will we see a United Cyprus in this life or the other?
Can you give your best estimate when you expect the problem to be resolved? Will it ever be resolved? |
Anytime between 2008 (when Tassos will cease to be Greek Cypriot leader) and 2018 (when Turkey will enter the EU). The Cyprus Problem must by necessity be solved within this time frame, and a solution either before or after this period is in my mind impossible. |
May I ask you Alexandros, assuming you were the leader of the Greek Cypriot community and having you down for someone who acknowledges the need for real and serious changes on the solution plan, what would have been your immediate and short term moves on the issue of having a solution in the nearest possible future? |
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1244
Location: Nicosia
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Call the bluff of Talat. Put the Turkish side to the test!
Even on Friday, Talat said that he is only interested in solution. Ask the SG to convene talks on the basis of his plan to discuss changes to it that do not alter its philosophy but can make it acceptable to both communities.
Ask for these talks to be convened ... yesterday. Forget about the call for the talks to be carefully prepared and doing away the tight schedules. This is what I would do if I were in the president's shoes.
If however, I were Papadopoulos, I would play for time, asking for about 40 changes to the plan that would make it unrecognisable and of course unacceptable to the other side. I would ask for years on end to prepare the talks and refuse any help from the SG (euphemistically called arbitration). I would stall for time, so that in view of my failure to achieve plan A, to go merrily for plan B, which has more chances for success. In case, Kifeas, you do not know what plan B entails, read Papadopoulos's speech, before it was censored, at Helsinki in one the think-tank institutes of Finland, last year. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Bananiot wrote: |
Call the bluff of Talat. Put the Turkish side to the test!
Even on Friday, Talat said that he is only interested in solution. Ask the SG to convene talks on the basis of his plan to discuss changes to it that do not alter its philosophy but can make it acceptable to both communities.
Ask for these talks to be convened ... yesterday. Forget about the call for the talks to be carefully prepared and doing away the tight schedules. This is what I would do if I were in the president's shoes.
If however, I were Papadopoulos, I would play for time, asking for about 40 changes to the plan that would make it unrecognisable and of course unacceptable to the other side. I would ask for years on end to prepare the talks and refuse any help from the SG (euphemistically called arbitration). I would stall for time, so that in view of my failure to achieve plan A, to go merrily for plan B, which has more chances for success. In case, Kifeas, you do not know what plan B entails, read Papadopoulos's speech, before it was censored, at Helsinki in one the think-tank institutes of Finland, last year. |
Bananiot, I think this was not the question that I addressed to you. The one you answered was the one addressed to Alexandros. The question that I addressed to you is to be found 2 postings before it. Never mind though, as I feel I already know your answer to it. |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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The Turkish Cypriot's keep harping on about wanting a solution to the problem. The question is, what do they mean by 'solution'?
The Turks are busy cementing over the north of Cyprus. We hear talk of a 'solution' past 2010. What kind of Cyprus will we have at that time? I don't think it has escaped the Papadopoulos government as to what is going on in the north. I do not seriously think that he wants to wait and wait and wait because there will be nothing left to unify with.
There is talk of negotiations starting in some form towards the end of the year. Perhaps they will gather some momentum of their own and all sides will start to see sense. The Turks may put pressure with what they are doing in the north, but quite frankly, if it has not esacaped anyones attention, the Loizidou case is again on the horizon as the final part of that ruling needs to be implemented - that of her right to freely enjoy her land and property in the north. Once that has reached resolution, the precedent will have been set - that Turkey will not get away with usurping Greek Cypriot property in the north.
We really do not know what is going on behind the scenes. I would imagine that pressure is being put on all sides to get things moving again. |
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Crash Test Dummy
Warnings : 3
Ministerial
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 4941
Location: London(ish)
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| International pressure does not really work in Cyprus. Neither side ever makes a real effort to fix the problem. They are half-attempts just to appease the international community. They then blame the other side for not wanting a solution |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
The Turks are busy cementing over the north of Cyprus. |
The Turks are cementing over North Cyprus? Is that the 'Turks' as the laywer in the recent court case used the term?
Putting aside who is actualy doing the cementing and who owns the land being cemented, even with all the boom in construction here in the North, we still lag far behind the south in terms of having cemented over Cyprus. Maybe that's why Greek Cypriot are so inistent on getting their land in the north back rather than compensation, because unlike the south, it is considerably less cemented over? |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| cannedmoose wrote: |
| I agree entirely. A solution will not happen during a Tassos Papadopoulos Presidency as he has no real desire for a solution on anything other than his own terms. |
May I ask you Moose, are the Turkish Cypriots and Turkey in possession of a real desire for a solution other than one on their own terms?
Are the Anglo-Americans for this sake, any different?
Or is just a case of pumping in rhetoric slogans in the forum? |
If you read my post more closely Kifeas, you would have noted that I was only discussing the Greek Cypriot position. Since you want me to qualify that with an analysis of the Turkish Cypriot and Turkish perspective, here goes:
Yes, I think in Talat's case he is prepared to compromise and has demonstrated this in past actions. Obviously he is prevented from going too far by hardliners both in Northern Cyprus and Turkey itself. As for Erdogan and Turkey, the degree of movement demonstrated by Erdogan in his period in office is remarkable when you consider it to historical Turkish policy on Cyprus. Remember Bulent Ecevit, the man who claimed that there was no Cyprus problem because he'd solved it in 1974. Remember Tansu Ciller, who threatened to annex the North in the event of Cyprus joining the EU. In contrast, Erdogan has been prepared to discuss Turkish policy on Cyprus and has met with Papadopoulos on a number of occasions (if you want pictoral evidence of this, I'm happy to post it), unthinkable back in the Ecevit days.
I'm not claiming that Turkey and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus leadership are the angels in this because they're not. They continue to hold to positions that they know full well are unacceptable to the Greek Cypriot perspective and do not bring the prospect of a workable solution any closer. However, at this moment in time, most rational people do realise that Papadopoulos is the blocking point in this process. He has proved incapable of telling the truth about the status of talks and in reigniting the military aspect to the Cyprus problem through the holding of Nikiforos this year (against the advice of everyone, including Greece), he has done the Greek Cypriot's no favours at all.
Therefore, quite how you see fit to blame everyone but TPap is frankly beyond me. |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| Quote: |
| The Turks are cementing over North Cyprus? Is that the 'Turks' as the laywer in the recent court case used the term? |
Grow up erol. You know exactly what i mean. It is the Turks from Turkey that are pumping the money into the north and it is mainly Turks from Turkey that are working on the construction sites.
And again, you resort to non-arguments as opposed to showing any respect for the owners of the land that was STOLEN from them by force. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
Grow up erol. You know exactly what i mean. It is the Turks from Turkey that are pumping the money into the north and it is mainly Turks from Turkey that are working on the construction sites. |
It is all sorts that are 'pumping money' into property development here. Investment capital rarely puts politicis above returns on investment. There is investment from UK, Turkey, Isreal and others as well as domestic investment as well. There are also constant rumours of Greek and Greek Cypriot investment as well. Profit is after all profit. Still I guess It's a lot more grown up to just reduce this reality to 'Turks'.
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
And again, you resort to non-arguments as opposed to showing any respect for the owners of the land that was STOLEN from them by force. |
The issue of the cementing of Cyprus is a real one and one close to my heart. If we are to talk about the cementing of cyprus (in terms of destruction of the environment) then it should be recognised that (not by choice) the North is actualy considerably less 'advanced' in this destruction of the environment is favour of development. That is just a fact. Again I am not sure why you think destruction of the Cypriot environment is a 'non argument'. It is a seperate issue from who owns the land. It is an issue of what is done with land. Still I guess no issue is worth any 'argument' except that of Greek Cypriot loss? |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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[quote="Xenos 2Fan"]
| boomerang wrote: |
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Okay Boomer, so your telling me that if the government sanctions your activities the stigma of a pimp no longer applies? In America the only place where prostitution is legal is in the state of Nevada. There are many "business men" that run brothels. But guess what? When they cross State lines, just as they are considered in their own state, they are still considered pimps. In this case, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck in my book they are ducks or pimps no matter how much the government glazes it over even if you're listed on the stock exchange.
And I would not be quite so sure about crminal activities in brothels. Most hookers are using drugs to cope with the fact that they are sleeping around with every Tom, Dick or Harry.
As far as real estate is concerned we are all part of the same hypocracy I and you included. aboriginal lands are sold and bought on every continent.
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GDay Xenos2Fan, Mate do not confuse the hookers walking the street with a legit business...A legit business functions differenely and here is quite regulated....Junkies ain't allowed to work in brothels and they must get checked every 3 months by a doctor in order to operate...We have no more pimps, only legit brothel houses...
As far as the Aboriginals are concerned, yes they got the wrong end of the stick, especially the lost generation, but you find out today they have got a lot of things back...If their land has been exploited in the past ytoday they collect all the money...Thye run the own contracts and they are the guardians of thier lands...
Xenos2Fan you can't turn the clock back, but you can atleast overturn as many of the wrongs into rights...And this is what is happenning today...Actually I was watching a doco the other day were Aborigines dish out tribal law...They seem to dish it to their own...Also in some areas I need permission to enter...Its not as bad as everyone thinks... |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| The Greek Cypriot loss Erol is massive. Over 180000 refugees lost their land, homes and businesses and by definition their children and their offspring have lost too. Belittling this loss and putting other issues above it simply shows that you personally do not care about this massive injustice that has been inflicted on these people. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| The Greek Cypriot loss Erol is massive. Over 180000 refugees lost their land, homes and businesses and by definition their children and their offspring have lost too. Belittling this loss and putting other issues above it simply shows that you personally do not care about this massive injustice that has been inflicted on these people. |
I was not belitting Greek Cypriot losses. I was taking exception to your post making out that it was Turks that were developing property in the North, when the truth is very different from that. Your choice of saying Turks was to me very specific an emotive. If your problem is people investing in Greek Cypriot property pre 74 in the North then say that is your problem. When you say make out that this 'offence' is being committed only by 'Turks' you distort the truth. I also took exception to the emotive 'cementing over' phrase. Like somehow we are more predisposed to destroying our environment here in the North than elsewhere (even though we have actually done less so than most other places - the south included) because we are Turks, or Turkish Cypriot or the land was not ours pre 74. Again this is an emotive distortion of the truth as far as I am concerned.
I personaly think environmental issue do and should come above our poltical wranglings. What will it matter who gets the land if it is destroyed? Does that mean that we should forget other issues, including Greek Cypriot loss of property. Not at all. It does mean imho that enrironmental issues should be one of the areas where we try and work togeather DESPITE our ability to do so on the political front. I have in the past been involved in (some very small) efforts myself on this front. |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| The Greek Cypriot loss Erol is massive. Over 180000 refugees lost their land, homes and businesses and by definition their children and their offspring have lost too. Belittling this loss and putting other issues above it simply shows that you personally do not care about this massive injustice that has been inflicted on these people. |
Mikkie2, who is the guy that is out there every couple of weeks encouraging his fellow Cypriots to work together to repair and maintain overgrown Greek Cypriot cemetaries in the north? I don't see you putting your money where your mouth is and doing anything like this. If you think Erol is some sort of hardliner, I think quite frankly that you're deluded. When the time comes that I see you organising bicommunal events in your own time, using your own money and resources, then you might stand to gain equal credibility with Erol, until then, by attempting to belittle him, you're just doing it to yourself 10x over.
Let's remember this... neither community in Cyprus has the monopoly on either grief or material loss. Both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots lost property, money and most importantly lives in the terrible events of the past. In terms of sheer numbers, yes, the Greek Cypriots suffered quantitatively more, but in qualitative terms, the suffering was and has been equal. You should reflect on this and remember this when you post in the future. |
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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
| bg_turk wrote: |
Will we see a United Cyprus in this life or the other?
Can you give your best estimate when you expect the problem to be resolved? Will it ever be resolved? |
Anytime between 2008 (when Tassos will cease to be Greek Cypriot leader) and 2018 (when Turkey will enter the EU). The Cyprus Problem must by necessity be solved within this time frame, and a solution either before or after this period is in my mind impossible. |
May I ask you Alexandros, assuming you were the leader of the Greek Cypriot community and having you down for someone who acknowledges the need for real and serious changes on the solution plan, what would have been your immediate and short term moves on the issue of having a solution in the nearest possible future? |
Lots and lots of informal and un-chaperoned meetings with the leader of the Turkish Cypriot community, to work on the development of understanding, the creation of a working relationship, and the bridging of the gap between the positions of the two communities. This can only be achieved in an informal setting, where each leader can speak his mind without fear of being cornered - and this is what the UN expects to see before it will formally reconvene negotiations.
I would also ask my government spokesman to shut his mouth and stop accusing the Turkish Cypriot leadership at every opportunity, I would be soberly educating the Greek Cypriot public on what a BBF would "look like" in practice so that they are psychologically prepared for it, I would authorise, as "sovereign Republic of Cyprus", the opening of some ports in the north for the needs of Turkish Cypriots.
Last edited by Alexandros Lordos on Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
Lots and lots of informal and un-chaperoned meetings with the leader of the Turkish Cypriot community, to work on building confidence and bridging the gap between the positions of the two communities. This can only be achieved in an informal setting, where each leader can speak his mind without fear of being cornered.
I would also ask my government spokesman to shut his mouth and stop accusing the Turkish Cypriot leadership at every opportunity, I would be soberly educating the Greek Cypriot public on what a BBF would "look like" in practice so that they are psychologically prepared for it, I would authorise, as "sovereign Republic of Cyprus", the opening of some ports in the north for the needs of Turkish Cypriots. |
I think we should get Alex elected at the elections next May... a voice of reason at last...
Alex (and anyone else), what is the situation with Chrysostomides? Is he simply a mouthpiece for Papadopoulos and the Ministerial Council, or does he put forward his own views as well? I don't really know much about him apart from him being involved in some shady 'political movement' to do with the reorientation of the political centre. Is he a Presidential wannabe, or simply a TPap 'yes man'? |
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